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Gaits of Gold Gaited Horse Community Messageboard > Gaited Horse Training Discussions > Clicker Training by 4-Square > Questions & Answers Section to Chance's Targeting Journal |
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Gaits of Gold Gaited Horse Community Messageboard > Gaited Horse Training Discussions > Clicker Training by 4-Square > Questions & Answers Section to Chance's Targeting Journal |
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| Questions & Answers Section to Chance's Targeting Journal | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27th, 2006 04:44 am |
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1st Post |
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4Square G.O.G Community Member 
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Another message board member suggested keeping a separate Q&A section specific to Chance's target/clicker training journal. I think that is a great idea. So please try to keep discussion and comments in this section. This will help keep things organized and streamlined and make it easier to follow the actual posted training sessions with Chance! Thanks so much!tu1 [4]  Last edited on Wed Dec 27th, 2006 04:47 am by 4Square ____________________ GOG Certified Trainer http://www.foursquarehorse.com Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. I Co 13: 6 -7 |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 9th, 2007 04:51 pm |
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2nd Post |
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allgaited G.O.G Community Member
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4-Square Question for ya. I had started clicker training with my horse last year. He learned the touch-it command very quickly, but would be really bad on mugging me for treats. I wasn't sure how to handle his mugging, so we quit clicker training. Any advice?
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11th, 2007 05:26 am |
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3rd Post |
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4Square G.O.G Community Member
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Hi Allgaited! Thanks for your question. Your horse is mugging you for treats, because you have trained him to mug you for treats. He has associated getting pushy with you as how he can get a treat. He has not learned that he only gets a treat after he hears the bridge/ "click". In target training it is really important to only reward the behavior you want and to ignore the behaviors you don't want. Your horse thinks he is dominating you to get the treats, that is why he is mugging you. There is something going awry in how you've been reinforcing him. When you first start target training it is crucial to be very vigilant to closely link the bridge signal with the presentation of the food reward immediately upon recognizing the behavior you are trying to reinforce. If the horse does something you don't want him to do before you can give him his food reward, don't give the food to him, because he will only likely link the last thing he did as what earned him the food. Sometimes you will feel like you are going backward in the training when you attempt to reinforce a correct response, but then have to refrain from giving the reinforcer because the horse has pinned his ears/grabbed for the food in anticipation/nudged you etc after he had correctly done what you initially asked. You are trying to "shape" the correct behavior, which means only reinforce specifically what you want. This takes time and patience because oftentimes the horse will become discouraged when he is not finding the correct answer to earn the food response and not come up with the right answer as quickly. It is very important to keep the lessons brief and the horse's interest in finding the answers high. The important thing to remember is that you should not reinforce mugging behavior. If your horse mugs for food, then you have several choices on how to respond. The first, and the safest is to end the game and walk away. If you want to continue the training session, you can choose to drive him away when he chooses to try to mug you. You only have to get as big in your response as is necessary to get him to quit mugging you. This tells him using negative pressure that his behavior is not acceptable. Then you can invite him back to you to play the game again on your terms. Only give the reward for the correct response. It is also helpful not to hand feed the horses at any time except when playing the target game. Never hand fed treats when they are not "earning" them. There are also other things you can be aware of even when you are not specifically target training. Never let your horse take food away from you. This means if you are carrying hay to toss for him to eat-do not allow him to snatch hay while you are carrying it. Same thing with grain. Make them stay a respectful distance from you and only let them approach their dinner after you give them permission to do so. The most dominant horse in a herd has first choice of food and can take it away from any beneath him in the dominance hierarchy. When your horse takes food away from you without permission, he is your alpha and outranks you in his mind. I hope this helps.tu1 [4]
____________________ GOG Certified Trainer http://www.foursquarehorse.com Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. I Co 13: 6 -7 |
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11th, 2007 10:59 pm |
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4th Post |
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allgaited G.O.G Community Member
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Yes, thank you - that is very helpful. Just for the record, I did not reward him with treats when he was mugging me. It was inbetween times while I was offering him the target that he got so obnoxious. But I really like the idea of sending him away. I will try that and let you know how it goes. Again, thank you for your insight.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16th, 2007 03:21 pm |
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5th Post |
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4Square G.O.G Community Member
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Hi Allgaited-I'm glad some of the info helped. It is really difficult to ascertain over the internet exactly what went wrong with just a verbal description, and sometimes the writer's perception is missing what I need to "see" to really give worthwhile advice. That's why I used the shotgun approach and tried for a variety of things that might not have worked. The response in no way was meant as a judgment on what you were doing. Pick and choose what is useful and helpful. Sometimes the response may totally miss the mark on what the requester was looking for, but might help another. That's the other reason this is a public forum and not a private individual response thing. Happy targeting! [4]
____________________ GOG Certified Trainer http://www.foursquarehorse.com Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. I Co 13: 6 -7 |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20th, 2007 03:00 pm |
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6th Post |
Hurleycane
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Hey [4]!~ Gotta ask some questions - And would prefer you not answer if'n your gonna use that aching arm!!!!!! Nose only for you!!!!!! Background:You may or may not know - my Cane is a bit of a handfull. He is older (13-15), was fearfull and avoiding with people, now trusting with me - avoids others he does not know, is a bossy horse in a herd, would be a great ride - but he will do "spook-a-whirls" and melt downs out of the blue, less now than he used to - but still does. He will follow his new herd mate Holiday anywhere on any trail, still spooks but leaves off the rear-whirls when with Holiday. He no longer has diarrhea when ridden (he was/is very nervous, huh!). SO WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH CLICKER TRAINING YOU ASK??? Well I think I inadvertantly have started a "Clicker Training" with him. To get him to not see me as a "foe" I applied a dog training thing called "touch" where I held my hand out with grain, said "touch" and when he touched it I gave him the treat. When I approach, ride or lead - I would throw in a "touch request" and give him a treat. Thursday, was 1st time going off property alone and 1st spook-a-whirl in a month. We did some undersaddle "get over it" back and forth by the spook thing till he let go of cat behavior. After the ride - I brought him back to the spook thing in hand - and he repeated the bug-eyed snort cat walk stuff - I stopped leading him forward and asked him to "check it out" (my phrase for "ok to stand here and look till you are relaxed). Then I reached down to the offending pile and said "touch Cane - see its ok" and to my total surprise he touched the offending thing with his nose!!!!!!!!!! I was floored !!!!!! Here's my thoughts with Cane - He requires exercise for his UPF ( bad to lounge him)- we can't do too much cause he has weak suspensories (ridden with medicine boots). I do not want to drive him (the spook a whirls and I don't like carts). So I am trying to come up with a plan to transition what is happening on the ground (positive response to verbal cues) to under saddle (he also loathes the site of the saddle!!) I was thinking of tacking him up to some degree and practicing these sort of things - Then I thought - hey ask [4] for ideas! So here I am. Where would you go from here? You better not "touch" that keyboard with your hand - Nose only!
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2007 04:07 am |
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7th Post |
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rackn G.O.G Community Member 
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I borrowed this from another board, there are a few other amazing videos, but this one is just great. Not to mention this horse is just gorgeous to look at. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A03hSXgn6XU
____________________ "this may seem ominous, as ominous as climbing Everest but once you're over the top and down the other side resting at the bottom, your mountain seems as if it were nothing more than a grain of sand" ... how true that's been in other situations |
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2007 11:43 am |
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8th Post |
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TessieB Ranch Hand 
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Too funny! I wonder if the horse can catch a frisbee? A ridable retriever! YeeHaw!
____________________ I scream, you scream, we all scream for a gaiting machine! |
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17th, 2007 02:09 pm |
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9th Post |
g8dhorse
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Cute video. I wonder if he can flex to the leftl1
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 05:28 pm |
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10th Post |
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silvergirl G.O.G Community Member
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Hi 4 Square and all: I am new to the g of g website and am very pleased to see the "clicker" folks part of things... In the past I used the clicker to teach my dog and cat various useful things. However, last year I had the opportunity to take part in a two day equine clicker workshop with Alexandra Kurland here in the Ottawa, Canada area. *she's the trainer that taught "Panda" the mini horse to be a guide-horse for a lady who is bliind...* Amazing stuff, great trainer too. In my opinion horses almost seem to learn this technique faster than other animals ?It's a great way to spend useful/fun time with your horse in bad weather or when one of you is not in riding mode ! The clicker method has been very helpful to build confidence and help relax my older standardbred mare. *mainly just with "touch and target" and taking steps toward scary objects.* I have also had tremendous success using the clicker with an 'alpha' Rocky Mtn mare that I ride and work with. This mare is a sweetie, but can do the "plant her feet and refuse thing" and ignore 'whoa' when it suits her. She was off for almost a year having a foal so we are working on a few things now to get her back into her previous very rideable state. i.e. stand for mounting, back up instantly on command, turn on the forehand and the haunches, move sideways away from pressure. These things are basic really, but since I know nothing of her background as a riding horse I have had to do things by trial and error. By way of explanation, I need to tell you that I rode this mare in 2005 on trails and found her easy to ride and quite willing with no real indication of the uncooperative stuff she exhibited when I started riding her again after her filly was weaned... We are making good progress now and I am having fun learning about her gaits and this wonderful breed. Someone mentioned their horse mugging for treats... I was able to teach "The adults are talking" in about three tries with this RMH mare i.e. handler stands at right angles to horses head (horse is behind a stall guard) with arms folded and horse stays neutral or looks away until clicked and treated. With a very greedy horse it took me longer, but the secret I think is taking tiny steps to reach the length of time you want. ** it's very important to use a stall guard or a fence or whatever because then you can control the horses ability to mug you until they get the concept. btw, I use a 'tongue click' or the word 'yes' rather than a mechanical clicker. Just my two cents on the "clicker" method. Would love to share other peoples experiences ! :cool:silvergirl *my horse, a dream come true...
____________________ ... Beth |
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 05:34 pm |
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11th Post |
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gaitingal Ranch Hand 
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Welcome aboard, Beth! Loved reading of your experiences w/ clicker training! Hop on over to the New Members Section & tell us about yourself, if you get a chance. post us some pics!! We LOVE pictures! --Debbie in GA
____________________ "Wrinkles should merely indicate where smiles have been." - Mark Twain |
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2007 01:52 am |
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12th Post |
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4Square G.O.G Community Member
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Welcome Silvergirl! Great to have another target training devotee join the message board. To the rest of you, all I can say is God Bless the extra daylight after work! It seems I accomplish so little but work in the winter! Then spring brings the grass and the weeds and the dread. I now have a lawn tractor courtesy of the great American tradition of plastic, as I have realized my weed wacker and push mower days are long behind me... Chance & Banner are scheduled to be gelded on Saturday. Rawhide had his second ride of the year today at a trails trial clinic and disappointed his fans by being a good boy and not making me an ornament at the top of an oak tree, although he did back me into the branches of one when I refused to let him follow a very cute, very hyper, prancing Morgan mare. I did not longe him-I rode him cold, no bellyaching, just a couple of moments of "I'm in love and want to follow that there mare" [he IS a gelding], overall a good ride. I joked that I needed to find out what "weed" was in his hay that acted like a sedative. But honestly, he's done quite well and I think the extended lay off last year as I recovered from injuries helped his brain-either that or the sheer boredom of being on the ranch 24/7 and not going anywhere! People ask if I will target/clicker train him. My response is best a visual one-here, come watch as I enter the pasture with Rawhide and Melody with a bucket of grain and watch Melody perform as Mr. Hide stands cooly and watches her "be silly for the humans" for a morsel of grain. He won't even "ask" to have the goodies. Nope, no food motivation present in that horse! Anyway, I look forward to the change of seasons and have lots of plans and hope to share more stories on target training soon. [4]
____________________ GOG Certified Trainer http://www.foursquarehorse.com Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. I Co 13: 6 -7 |
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 05:28 am |
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13th Post |
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alforddm G.O.G Community Member 
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You decided to have Chance gelded? If you posted this somewhere else I'm sorry I musted have missed it. Daylene
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 07:28 am |
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14th Post |
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4Square G.O.G Community Member
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Well, actually, both boys got a reprieve. My old commuter car nearly lost a wheel and I had to replace the upper control arms this week. It was a lot of money and blew several months worth of disposable income, so the gelding decision is now postponed until the conclusion of fly season. I am not very sure I want to promote a stallion. I mostly like to ride. Chance is super nice and so we'll just have to see if he can have hormones and behave out on the trails. He won't be started under saddle until he is at least 3, so that is another year and change. There are just so many horses on the market that I'm not sure about the whole time, energy, stallion promotion thing. We'll see what the fall brings. Partly the decision to geld was a little bit knee jerk to having Dixie abort her Friesian Sporthorse foal at 8 months a couple of weeks ago. I love to have a foal around, but the drama and expense of producing them coupled with a poor market, just made me reconsider how I would enjoy Chance more as a gelding. He's still very sweet with me, but he does know what mares are! [4]
____________________ GOG Certified Trainer http://www.foursquarehorse.com Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. I Co 13: 6 -7 |
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| Posted: Mon Apr 2nd, 2007 10:39 pm |
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15th Post |
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Mistiblue G.O.G Community Member 
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I have a question on clicker training. Is there ever a point in time when you migrate away from giving treat rewards and if so, how would that be done? I'm just thinking that there might be a time when you don't have a treat with you and want them to do something they've been trained to do. I'm guessing they would be pretty dissapointed if they have come to expect a treat and you don't have one for them. s5 Thanks, 
____________________ "The Greatness of a Nation and it's moral progress can be judged by the way that its' animals are treated " - Gandhi |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 03:40 am |
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16th Post |
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silvergirl G.O.G Community Member
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Hi: In my opinion, clicker training has to be tailored to each horse. By that I mean if your horse is a food hound w2 then as soon as they know the game, it's good to give the treat once or twice and then use the word "yes !!" instead of a treat after the click, every few times. I use hand signals too so that soon they will recognize the word for each action and can get a pat and/or a scratch rather than a treat all the time. One of the things that stayed with me regards clicker stuff is that the click is a marker, an instant bridge to show the animal they have got it. The treat is the reward. The word 'yes !' does the same thing, however it is not as easy to get the behaviour as with the treat. The other thing to remember is to just take small steps to get the behaviour you want, and make sure that the horse clearly knows the basics before going ahead to something more complicated... Have fun with it, there are very few absolute rules, and patience is the key. Short positive sessions are better than long tedious ones. Try to be innovative. *** my standardbred mare enjoys the clicker game. She is very good at it and we can play anywhere because she respects my space. She will play for awhile then walk away and come back when she's ready. She is not that food driven like my gelding was, or the Rocky mare that I ride is. Hope this helps a bit. Silvergirl 
____________________ ... Beth |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 05:38 am |
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17th Post |
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4Square G.O.G Community Member
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Hi Mistiblue, Silvergirl is correct when she states it is important to learn to read the animal and its degree of motivation to ascertain when and how long to withold a food reward. Some horses can never be fully weaned off some form of food reinforcer, however you can extend the intervals of food reinforcement and still get the behavior for as long as you reinforce often enough to convince the horse that supplying the behavior is worth a few bum paychecks. The technical term is "intermittent reinforcement". IR can be a very strong motivator if the reinforcer is up to snuff. This is the principal behind slot machines. It is important to work gradually away from 1:1 reinforcement schedule and to also vary the schedule, but don't lengthen it so long to the point where your horse loses interest. And it is critical that you do not begin an IR schedule until you know for a certainty that the horse has learned the desired behavior or else you may lose the behavior as the horse becomes frustrated and starts to try some other behavior to be reinforced. Some horses will work for positive things like a scratch or a kind word. But, just like you or I wouldn't likely keep working a job if the paycheck disappeared, there are some horses that are only truly motivated by the treat. The trick for us is finding the balance of how long we can withold the treat without extinguishing the horse's motivation. My mare Melody must receive a food reinforcer during every performance or she will quickly lose interest. Her schedule of reinforcement varies, but she always receives something after performing at least several of her behaviors without the reinforcer. [4]
____________________ GOG Certified Trainer http://www.foursquarehorse.com Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. I Co 13: 6 -7 |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 03:20 pm |
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18th Post |
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myg8dFrankie G.O.G Community Member 
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Hi 4, I bought my first horse six months ago after a lifetime of wanting one so badly(I am 43) he is an eight year old, 16 hand, gelding TW/racking horse named Frankie. I have not been on GOG for a while as I have been so buisy working with Frankie. I started clicker training last week and then found this forum yesterday. I have read everything and it has really helped. When I started I used a clicker and my usually very calm and brave boy became completely petrified of the clicker noise. I had never seen him so frightened. I decided that I would change the noise so I could concentrate on the training and not working through this particular fear. I use a sharp kiss noise now. He picked up traget training and then backing after just a day and a half each. It is great fun and I am planning my next tasks. What do you thing I should move onto next? I would like to teach fetch along with some more practical things like improving his verbal WHOH(sp). How long should I work on one task even after he has got it, to enforce it before moving on to the next new thing? Attachment: Frankie & Barbara for web.jpg (Downloaded 98 times)
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| Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 05:14 pm |
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19th Post |
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Mistiblue G.O.G Community Member
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Awsome! Thanks guys for all your help! I'm going to start trying the clicker training a a friends Quarter Horse. He spooks easily and can be quite a handfull. I'm hopeing this will help. Myg8dFrankie,.. congrats on getting your horse! You must be so excited. He is beautiful!
____________________ "The Greatness of a Nation and it's moral progress can be judged by the way that its' animals are treated " - Gandhi |
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| Posted: Wed Apr 4th, 2007 03:49 am |
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20th Post |
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myg8dFrankie G.O.G Community Member
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Hi Mistiblue, thanks and good luck to you on your training too. I decided to renforce the backing today and frankie was for the first time very treat agressive. He niped at me once and so I chased him off and walked away. I waited until after my ride to try again. he was better but a couple of times he tried to grab the treat from my hand. I closed my hand and made him back again until he calmly took the treat. I hope he gets over this soon but I am not surprised. He was very agressive when hand feeding when I first got him because his previous owner hand treated him a lot. I stopped treats all together and when I decided to start again he was better. Now he is starting again. Does this usually take most horses a long time to get over or I guess it just depends on the horse! :cool: Barbara
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| Gaits of Gold Gaited Horse Community Messageboard > Gaited Horse Training Discussions > Clicker Training by 4-Square > Questions & Answers Section to Chance's Targeting Journal | Top |
