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Gaits of Gold Gaited Horse Community Messageboard > Gaited Horse Training Discussions > Clicker Training by 4-Square > Target/Clicker Training |
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Gaits of Gold Gaited Horse Community Messageboard > Gaited Horse Training Discussions > Clicker Training by 4-Square > Target/Clicker Training |
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| Target/Clicker Training | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19th, 2007 07:34 pm |
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1st Post |
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gaitedpaint G.O.G Community Member 
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Hi Tara, Never fear, you have given me an assignment that I'm sure will keep us busy. One thing I noticed. I was down at the barn with the horses and our dog. I kissed to the dog to come. Ricco was eating his hay, and when he heard the kiss, his head shot up in alarm. Just wondering, he must not be totally desensitized to the sound? Only durning the lessons? Hmmm Any thoughts? You're istructions on teaching the bow seem very clear. I'll have to introduce a target stick though. Another fear Ricco has, is a stick, or whip etc.; It'll be good for him! Gotta run for now. Thanks for taking the time to explain the next steps. I'll be working on them. sylvia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2007 09:36 pm |
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2nd Post |
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4Square G.O.G Community Member 
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Sylvia-you and Ricco are doing great! That is exactly the next step, to teach them to touch the different objects. When you place the target away from you and want the horse to touch it, introduce the vocabulary word "go". Tell your horse to "go touch it". Once they really understand and are motivated to touch the object on command, you can start shaping the bow. Your horse is ready to start learning this! Teaching the bow is simple once the horse understands the concept of "touch it". At this point I teach the horse to target their nose on the very end of my 4 foot training stick (same instrument as Parelli's carrot stick). Once I have them consistent on touching the end of the stick, I start moving it to various locations around their body. For example, on their chest, between their knees, at their flank, shoulder, hock etc. Once it is really clear they've got the idea, to teach the bow, I graph in my mind the gradations it takes for a horse to posture its body to get to the bow position and then I start offering the target at gradation one, in front of the knees; then gradation two, between the knees; then gradation three a little bit behind the knees. Once the horse is consistently touching its nose to the target a little bit behind the knees, I then move it even further back, which necessitates the horse problem solving that they need to move one leg out of the way to reach the target to get their reward. At this point I start pairing my verbal cue with the requested action "take a bow". As the horse gets better and more consistent, you can eventually move the target so far underneath the horse that they have to go down on one knee to touch it. Now here's the thing you need to be aware of if you want your horse to learn to stay down on one knee in the bow and not pop right back up to get its reward-is to give them their food incentive while they are in the bow position and gradually delay giving them the bridge signal and food reinforcer so as to train them to stay down until you give them the release to get back up. Melody was the first horse I ever target trained, and I made the error of rewarding her after she was back on her feet from performing the bow. She was the queen of the 2 second bow! She's getting better now at staying down, but I had to go back to square one with her on the reward schedule in reshaping my request, which made her really mad and frustrated at me and sometimes quit working when she'd bow, pop up and not get reinforced! The horse that truly is motivated to touch a target and has figured out that he/she must touch the target to get a reward can be taught to do the levade or rear, which is simply the target in the air necessitating the horse to have to stand on its hind legs to touch it. I do not recommend this behavior be taught to most horses. Melody was target trained before she was taught to ride and she was graduated to both hand and verbal signals. Horses are very attuned to body language. Melody learned to key into my hands for instructions. When I started riding her, she would try to crank her head around to see my hands in order to understand what was being asked and when confused, she would offer the most easiest trained behavior to see if that would earn her something. The easiest behavior to offer with a rider was none other than the rear! She wasn't being bad or resistant, she was just trying to offer a behavior that earned her a reward, just like she would sometimes go through all her behaviors in her pasture to attract my attention when she is jealous of the attention paid to the other animals. For me, it was simple to dissuade the rear. I just politely told her, "No, no Melody" and did not reinforce, and so the rear under saddle was extinguished. I have no doubt that if I ask her to rear under saddle that she would happily do it, but I will never ask her for that advanced maneuver until she is fully trained and knows a lot of other stuff so she wouldn't be tempted to offer me a rear when confused! Yeah, the big ol Hi Ho Silver rear is probably the most dramatic and impressive thing she can do at liberty and impresses the guests, but it was not the smartest thing I ever did in teaching it before I had saddle trained her. In teaching the retrieve, you do the same thing in your mind like you did with the bow. Sylvia did a great job describing one of the first steps, which is after your horse is consistently touching an object on command, you decide to shape the next step, which is the horse putting its mouth on the object. You are going to introduce new vocabulary here because you want "touch it" to only mean touch it with their nose. I use "get it" as the verbal pairing when teaching the horse to grab something with its mouth. So, once your horse clearly understands "touch it", you can introduce "get it". To begin teaching "get it", offer the target as before and say "get it". The horse will most likely touch the object with its nose, however you are not going to reinforce for just touching. This is going to momentarily confuse the horse. It is okay to repeat the "get it" cue should they stop trying and look at you. They also might at this point try to help themselves to the reinforcer because they did "touch it". Dissuade them from mugging, and repeat the "get it" command. Out of sheer frustration they may lip, nuzzle or bite at the target. Whatever it is that they do that is progress toward the object in their mouth you bridge with your signal, and reinforce. Most horses will at first begin to consistently nuzzle the object. Once they do that then, stop reinforcing until you get them biting at the object, then once they are consistently biting the object, delay the reinforcer until you have to physically remove the object from their mouth, at which point you say "bring it back" and then reinforce. Once you can direct the horse to "get it" and they bite the target and hold on to it until you say "bring it back" and take the target from their mouth, you can set the target on the ground between you and the horse and introduce the next part of the vocabulary which is "Go". Point at the object and tell your horse to "Go get it and bring it back". As soon as the horse grabs the target and picks it up off the ground, bridge and reinforce, taking the target from his mouth before he drops it. You want him to connect that picking up the object is exactly what you want. Once he understands that, you can start shaping him actually handing it over to you. From this point the retrieve is very easy to shape. You simply move the target further and further away from you and only reinforce once the horse has delivered the object to you. Now it may sound simple enough, but teaching the above and getting each preceeding step down solid takes time and patience and many lessons. It took a good three months of lessons for Melody to learn to retrieve just about anything she could pick up. She was not initially enamored with the idea of retrieving. Somewhere in my archives I have a story I will post that poignantly illustrates the type of 2-way communication that begins to take shape with one's horse when you teach this kind of language. So, Sylvia and Ricco, a big gold star for you! tu1 Chance and I have some ground to cover to catch up! Feel free to post photos here too of your progress! I hope I have given you enough of a lesson plan for awhile! Tara Attachment: melody_bow4.jpg (Downloaded 56 times)
____________________ GOG Certified Trainer http://www.foursquarehorse.com Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. I Co 13: 6 -7 |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2007 07:55 pm |
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3rd Post |
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gaitedpaint G.O.G Community Member
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Hi Tara, Sylvia here! It's been a while since I've posted about the progress Ricco and I are making with the clicker/kisser  training.I have been working with Ricco consistantly, and seem to be getting some pretty good results. And it's fun! I bought a dog treat pouch that clips onto whatever I'm wearing, and it works well. You were right, the kiss is the perfect bridge for Ricco, he no longer throws up his head in alarm at the sound  !I've sort of moved on a little bit, I hope it's ok that I did.  I started out by using a body brush to teach him to 'touch it'. It took him a while, but he figured it out within the 10-15 minute session. I held it at first, and even had to hold it close to his muzzle, so that he could begin to get the connection. He had a couple of accidental touches, and I'd kiss, up went his head, and when he settled I gave him the reward.The next session, I repeated the body brush lesson and even though he seemed to need a reminder, he caught on a little faster than the day before. Next day/session, I graduated him by moving the brush to a different location, while still holding it. Places like down lower, or to the side, or up a little higher. Eventually I could place it on the ground in subsequent lessons; I'd point to the object, and say 'touch it', when he did, then I'd kiss (no high headedness), and he'd get the reward. Again, session are only 10-15 min. I have begun using different objects, starting at the beginning, i.e. holding first, then eventually being able to place it on the ground, and then moving it to different places, on the ground. Every session begins with this fundamental lesson of 'touch it'. We've now moved on to 'pick it up'. We're using a Jolly Ball, that no one had any interest in until these lessons. We start with the 'touch it' lesson, then move on to 'pick it up'. At first I had to hold the ball and get him to touch his teeth on the handle. I let some accidents happen, and used the accidental touch of the ball handle to his teeth, to be the starting point . . . kiss, then reward. Next time the ball was placed on the ground, and I point at it, saying: 'pick it up' ~kiss, reward. We've also started playing with the ball by me tossing it up into the air, away from him, which startles him, and then walking over to it and repeating the steps. He's getting it! He still startles a little at the toss, but it's getting less and less. As far as attempts on Ricco's part to mug me, I'm not letting it happen. He's tried, but I've either walked away or I allow his muzzle to bump into the back of my hand, to keep the lesson going. Hope that's the right way to handle mugging. I do NOT hand feed him anything anymore, since starting clicker training, except when we're doing the training. My husband has strict instructions not to as well! Long and windy, I know, thanks for reading and sharing. I'm looking forward to more istructions! sylvia and ricco
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| Posted: Fri Jan 5th, 2007 06:00 pm |
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4th Post |
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Ruuhzoo G.O.G Community Member 
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Here is another resource for clicker training - tailored specifically for equines - http://www.theclickercenter.com This lady (Alexandria Kurland) has about 20 years experience and has published several books and videos on the subject. I ordered the "beginners packet" today and am anxious to see how I can apply this training method to smooth out Dante's rough spots. One of my friends told me about the web site, who was told by another friend who uses the methods to train horses and lives up in Pennsylvania near Cornell University, where Ms. Kurland developed the training for horses. My friend has used the basic training on a pushy mare to teach her to respect personal space, not crowd, or rush when in hand. This was accomplished in a matter of a few days.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 3rd, 2007 07:12 pm |
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5th Post |
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gaitedpaint G.O.G Community Member
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Hi [4], Christmas and the New Year celebrations are over, and I am finally back to my routine; which is to say checking my emails and the MB,:cool: I did start Ricco on the 'kiss' as his bridge. It's good to know that I was right! Thanks, it's a relief to get confirmation. Without knowing you had emailed me, I started by putting tiny pieces of grain in my coat pocket. Ricco had a halter and lead rope on, but I had no contact with either. He was free to leave if he chose to. He did not leave. So, back to the grain. I used his grooming brush, something he's not scared of, and while holding it, would ask him to 'touch it'. At first he had no clue what I wanted him to do, so I held the brush closer to his nose. Eventually he would sniff it. I decided that was a 'baby give', and I kissed and gave him a piece of grain. When I kissed, his head shot up in alarm, but he brought it down, and took the piece of grain. After working with him for several minutes, getting a fairly consistent response, I began walking with him. We were in our roundpen, and he still had halter and lead on,(lead rope slung over his back). He chose to walk with me. That's something that he does pretty well anyway. When I stop, he stops, and I offered the brush to him again. He would touch it, most of the time the first time offered; then I'd kiss and reward. I probably was pushing things too much, by trying different positions for him to touch the brush, like putting it on the fence, or on the ground. He would only touch it when I was holding it. In reading your email, I will begin again today with his grain bucket. Hope he can find the tiny piece of grain ! And I won't have his halter and lead on. He'll totally be at liberty.And, I will begin working on just kissing at him, and when he settles he'll get his reward. Anytime he's startled when I'm working around him; cleaning stalls, wheel barrows, shovels etc., I usually ignore his reaction. Ignoring his reaction while in the saddle is a little harder, but I have never punished him, just to put your mind at ease. I want success, and I know punishment is not the way to prove to a scared horse(or any horse), that I'm his leader. It'll only prove to him that I really am the predator he thought I(or anyone) was. That was an awkward sentence, hopefully you get my meaning . Thankyou for the assignment! I work well with a plan! I'll keep you posted. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I'll do better next time . . .b1 sylvia and ricco
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 05:51 am |
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6th Post |
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4Square G.O.G Community Member
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Sylvia, reconditioning that kiss sound to mean something else IS the best way to get rid of that reaction. To give you something to do now while I get my act together with Chance, here's what I suggest you do: Have Ricco loose in a round corral or paddock by himself. Enter the corral and set down a feed bucket and allow him to approach you and the feed bucket. Before he reaches the feed bucket, make the kiss noise and then immediately put a goodie in the feed bucket and walk away. Even if he won't approach you, still make the kiss noise, put the goodie in the bucket and walk away. Wait until Ricco eats the goodie and then do it all over again, and again and again...after awhile, Ricco is going to start to associating that noise with, "Oh boy! I'm going to get a goodie in my feed bucket". You should keep these sessions to no more than ten minutes each. This will help keep the horse hungry for the goodies and really looking forward to the sessions to earn the goodies. Once Ricco is responding to the kiss noise as a call to chow time, you can begin to start training to generalize the kiss noise into other contexts. This would be a good time to start counter conditioning his old response to the kiss noise. Put a halter and lead rope on him. While he is standing still, make the kiss noise. Regardless of what he does, as soon as he settles, give him a goodie. Do not try to correct him if he overreacts to the kiss noise, just sweet talk him back to calm and stationary and give him the treat as soon as he calms and stands. So basically, you are going to kiss, and then wait until Ricco is standing still, and then reward. Once you can kiss and have him not move off on you, then you can advance to the next step. Let me know when you have accomplished this and I will give you further instructions! Tara
____________________ GOG Certified Trainer http://www.foursquarehorse.com Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. I Co 13: 6 -7 |
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 05:19 am |
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7th Post |
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gaitedpaint G.O.G Community Member
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Hi [4]!!, Glad to hear from you!!! But I am so sorry to hear of your pain and ailments! It must be tough! I'm thinking you have more grit than I do! I still haven't started Ricco on the clicker training. I'm being a chicken. This sounds dumb, but I'm trying to decide which 'sound' I'll use as the bridge, since I won't have an actual clicker. It makes sense to me to have your hands free,especially when my mouth is always ready, willing, and able!l1 I just want to be sure and pick something that I will always use. Interestingly enough, kissing at Ricco, especially while in the saddle, really sets him off, startles him . . . he thinks he has to GO. Someone must have taught him that kissing meant to move out, and NOW! As a result I avoid kissing at him while in the saddle. I know that's a no-no, but I'm not experienced enough to handle his reaction. I get myself into trouble when I 'accidentally' sorta suck air through my front teeth . . . it sounds like a kiss to Ricco . . . Yee Haw!! Maybe I should use the kiss as his bridge; then he'll associate the sound with standing for a reward, rather than takeing off! Wow, thinking out loud does wonders for me! What do you think? Should I reprogram my skiddish boy to the kiss as his bridge, and reward standing still? Does that make sense? Welcome back; glad your healing and feeling better! We're all looking forward to your helpful information! Thanks for wanting to share!!! Sylvia and Ricco
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 03:30 am |
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8th Post |
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4Square G.O.G Community Member
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Okay gals, I'm here...you'll have to practice patience with a decrepit beat up soul such as myself...have spent most of my time in bed when not working or doing chores...migraine, flu, impacted wisdom tooth, fibromyalgia flare up big time. s2 I do intend to get this thread cleaned up on another topic line and it WILL happen.tu1 As for getting a horse to accept hand fed items...that is covered in one of my posts somewhere...see, now the guilt is setting in...gotta organize this darn topic, gotta, gotta, gotta LOL! Anything is fine as long as your horse really digs it and really likes it. If you can find something extra special that he ONLY gets during the target training, all the better! So, if it is oatmeal cookies, Mrs. Pastures, licorice, whatever floats his boat will work for you! I met up with trail_rider at the CSHA Region 2 Christmas party and awards potluck last Saturday[BTW-Rawhide and I won the year end championship in trail trials for our division broken arm notwithstanding-those judging points helped LOL]. I tried recruiting her last month to be the designated photo shoot person. She had previously expressed that her schedule wasn't likely to free up until after the holidays. The good news is that she is still interested. I really want to get some "at the very beginning" type photos so I can attempt to illustrate the "shaping" part of getting the wanted response. A trained horse like Mel just isn't good to use because she's several steps beyond the basics. Plus there is no way I can photograph and train a new horse at the same time. I will also talk to my neighbor who just bought a fancy $1,500.00 digital camera and see if she'll help too. It is my intention to have the thread edited by Christmas and then we can start the New Year with a very dirty subject. s5 Oh come on gals, clean up the thoughts!p1 The nice thing about target training is that you don't have to groom your horse!l1 You should see Mr. Hide right now...he's a dirtamino.to1 And Chance, well, he's a black mudbino. Mel, well, she's still a classic champagne...prissy fancy girls don't grovel in mud! [4]
____________________ GOG Certified Trainer http://www.foursquarehorse.com Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. I Co 13: 6 -7 |
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 03:18 am |
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9th Post |
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whattarack Pasture Boss 
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I have it on good authority that Tara is alive and well and will be back with us as soon as possible. Meanwhile, go ahead and bomb her with PMs. It's always nice to know when your missed.
____________________ Being Offended is Optional. |
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 12:43 am |
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10th Post |
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rackn G.O.G Community Member 
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I've been thinking the same thing, where is Tara?! No pressure, just come and say hi!
____________________ "this may seem ominous, as ominous as climbing Everest but once you're over the top and down the other side resting at the bottom, your mountain seems as if it were nothing more than a grain of sand" ... how true that's been in other situations |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18th, 2006 09:59 pm |
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11th Post |
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whattarack Pasture Boss
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I've been waiting on Tara to edit this thread and start afresh. I haven't heard a word since her last post either. Shall we bomb her with PMs and let her know she's missed? Fire away!
____________________ Being Offended is Optional. |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18th, 2006 09:45 pm |
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12th Post |
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gaitedpaint G.O.G Community Member
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Hey guys, Has anyone heard from [4]? Her last post was Dec. 2nd. Just wondering, I am really interested in the clicker training stuff. Maybe I should ask her!?! Hey [4], what happened to ya? Is everything alright? Hope so. Let us know what's happening with Chance's progress, when you get time. Sylvia and Ricco
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18th, 2006 09:42 pm |
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13th Post |
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whattarack Pasture Boss
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I know dear, just as I could have helped you with those birthday cinamon rolls. Thank God for the miles between us. We both weigh less because of it.
____________________ Being Offended is Optional. |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18th, 2006 01:22 pm |
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14th Post |
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Tailgaitin G.O.G Community Member
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WR - I would have helped you eat those cookies for Pork Chop's sake. . .
____________________ I've Got Gait - just don't know which one! |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18th, 2006 12:00 pm |
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15th Post |
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whattarack Pasture Boss
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TG, you are right. That cookie has no place on my baby's butt. I had to eat all of them myself. It was for her own good. Walkin, if you wife does the same, it's only because she loves you. 1l
____________________ Being Offended is Optional. |
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16th, 2006 02:38 pm |
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16th Post |
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WALKNOHIO G.O.G Community Member 
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I think Whata has been talking to my wife. Judy tells me I am getting chubby and then goes and bakes a gazillion Christmas cookies.
____________________ It is always a good day to ride! |
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16th, 2006 02:33 pm |
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17th Post |
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Tailgaitin G.O.G Community Member
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Whatta, Don't you see a trend here? You've tried to introduce "healthy" foods to a horse you've nicknamed Pork Chop. Then, along comes an oatmeal cookie. . .hmmmmmm. l1
____________________ I've Got Gait - just don't know which one! |
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15th, 2006 11:45 pm |
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18th Post |
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whattarack Pasture Boss
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You know, I had never heard of beet pulp until I read it on this board. Wonder where to purchase that around here.t2 I'll have to ask the man at the mill. I have left carrot bites, apple bites in Taylor's feed bucket. She won't touch 'em. I tell ya, the horse has some issues. Today, I went out to the pasture with some things in my hands. Abby wants to know what I've got. She comes to see, sniff and feel. Taylor stands away with the big eyes. Much work to do with that mare. Sometimes I think it's a miracle she can be ridden. Very nervous. This coming April will make 2 yrs of having Taylor with us. Some things just take more time I suppose. I felt great success today when she ate the little cookie bite and from my hand.
____________________ Being Offended is Optional. |
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15th, 2006 11:28 pm |
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19th Post |
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gaitingal Ranch Hand 
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Well, the last oatmeal cookies I made were like hockey pucks & it took a long time for even the dogs to eat them, yet - the horses loved them. I think they should be fine as just a broken up treat? Maybe try introducing carrots into the feed bucket first. Many horses have never been introduced to such "foreign" food stuffs, so it may take a bit for them to learn to love them. I personally love using beet pulp pellets as food rewards. They are dehydrated, come inexpensively in a 50# bag & my horses love them & varmits don't touch them. (They do NOT wash well though...) --Debbie in GA
____________________ "Wrinkles should merely indicate where smiles have been." - Mark Twain |
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15th, 2006 09:04 pm |
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20th Post |
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whattarack Pasture Boss
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Been reading clicker thread and trying to get my horse to take a treat from me. No to apples, no carrots. No to her own feed from out of my hand. But today, she said YES to a small piece of oatmeal cookie and wanted more. Is oatmeal cookie a bad treat? She curled up her lips and bobbed her head until it was gone. Last edited on Fri Dec 15th, 2006 09:05 pm by whattarack ____________________ Being Offended is Optional. |
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| Gaits of Gold Gaited Horse Community Messageboard > Gaited Horse Training Discussions > Clicker Training by 4-Square > Target/Clicker Training | Top |
