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More Good News: No WGC Class, or Big Lick Champ!  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: Sat Sep 23rd, 2006 04:44 am
   
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BrendaImus
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This is a natural action gaited horse site/Message Board.

I'm closing the topic, becaue anyone who wants to see the truth of soring/padding/chaining/big lick action. . .WILL. Those who don't, WON'T.

We're not out to change minds, as that's a short term change. Those who don't see the problem with BL and unnatural going horses need a change of HEART.

We can't change your hearts, but love you all anyway.

Subject: closed.

PB r1



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 Posted: Tue Sep 19th, 2006 04:37 pm
   
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buckeyerev

 

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We have an 11 y.o. mare and 9 y.o. gelding.  Both currently are shown in lite shod division.  Both were originally padded show horses before they made the switch to lite shod with us.  Both of these aged horses are sound and have absolutely NO arthritis.  Both have been x-rayed by a top notch DVM.  We also have a 17 y.o. who I showed plantation for years.  He also was a padded horse prior to my purchasing him.  Once again, NO lameness issues. We use him for trail and he gets to still show once in a while.

My neighbors board and have a barn full of  pricey QH's.  Some are Reiners, some WP.  They are the biggest bunch of crippled up gimps I"ve seen.  Hocks and stifles getting injected regulary, Adequan shots, bute, chiropractors, massage therapist are all everyday fare over there.  There are 3 and 4 y.o.'s that are getting injected routinely just to get them through one show.  All you hear over there is "he's sore up front" or he's sore behind" or how they have the accupunture guy coming out the week before the big show. 

OK, before I listen to the "you shouldn't care about what the QH people do" crap and the "only worry about what the TWH do!",  I'll just say this:  I have never had to have a TWH injected, nobody's on Adequan and the biggest thing I do is give the old gentleman (the 17 y.o.) a  joint supplement  w/ MSM and glucosamine for prevention.

I wouldn't want thier problems.

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 Posted: Tue Sep 19th, 2006 02:59 pm
   
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DinValid1
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The horse's hoof is sealed airtight to the pad. It prevents thrush. The horse's hoof is held out of the rain, slush, fungus by the pad which is a very good barrier. Now if you get an idiot farrier that doesn't seal the hoof to the pad properly that will cause thrush, but most of the farriers in Tennessee are experts at putting on pads. I have a friend who pads his pleasure horse in the winter to prevent it from getting thrush. My horses have never had thrush ever. You are attributing any/all problems with your horses to their show days and I'd say that is not the case. Your retired show horses could have gotten their problems from something else: improper training, neglect, etc. There are rotten apples out there I'm not denying that, but these are my experiences and I am nothing if not honest.  Also I live in the walking horse capital of the world. These people are experts at what they do. They want to keep the horse as healthy as possible and showing for as long as possible. I've seen neglected pleasure horses that are starved and never ridden out in the pasture. Am I supposed to assume that all pleasure people who don't show their horses don't care about their upkeep because they aren't making as much money off of them. That's insane and am I supposed to hold you accountable (person who loves and takes good care of their pleasure horse) accountable for your neighbors actions. I don't think so.

Last edited on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 03:50 pm by DinValid1

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 Posted: Tue Sep 19th, 2006 02:44 pm
   
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twhsandy
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There are many, many TWH who have problems from their show days, I have two ex-show horses, am battling their severe arthritis, pasturn, and thrush now.  I have never shown my horses, those days are over forever for them.  I have a stepdaughter who was a sore/stack person.  I've seen all of this first hand, the soring/stacking, and lasting problems from all of it.  I don't need "educating."  The sore/stack people believe their own lies, and are trying to "eduate"  (placate) people who don't know first hand.  So sad for the horses, who have no voice in all this.:(:(:(  Wish CNN could interview a horse at a BL barn.

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 Posted: Tue Sep 19th, 2006 01:20 pm
   
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DinValid1
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I don't sore my horses and they probably live better than I do. There are problems on both sides. The USDA said that a callous was o.k. for a sport horse like the TWHs to have, but no scars. Before the Celebration everyone was getting along. Then 2 weeks before the Celebration they change the rules and didn't update their literature or their website. Now not even a small callous that most people can't see is unpassable. It could have been handled better on both sides. Go to a performance barn and I believe many of the bad opinions that you have of the industry will be dispelled. I noticed that someone posted on here earlier that on our message board that padded people resorted to personal attacks. That's the pot calling the kettle black. I'm telling you about my personal experiences and I'm trying to educate. I don't participate in name calling contests. If you go to the TWHBEA site they do promote the pleasure horse quite ardently. There is an entire section on there just for pleasure and versatility, but we recognize that all of the divisions are important. I have noticed that most of the negative articles in magazines are written by people that have never seen nor interacted with a padded horse before and based on bias observation. Feel good stories don't sell magazines. Reporters enjoy spinning things toward the negative for their bottom line. I think that I'll just sign off now. I just felt my side should be heard. In closing I have attached a picture of Generator's Showboat at 12. He was padded from 2 and look how fantastic he looks. The horse is in great shape. You can find many, many examples of horses like him.

Attachment: generatorsshowboat2.jpg (Downloaded 175 times)

Last edited on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 01:57 pm by DinValid1

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 Posted: Tue Sep 19th, 2006 10:39 am
   
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gaitingal
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...an ounce on the hoof = a pound on the shoulder...

--Debbie in GA



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 Posted: Tue Sep 19th, 2006 05:11 am
   
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Fargos Handmaiden
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Let's keep the discourse reasonably friendly.  It only makes the other side dig in their heels if they feel battered.

But the reason I brought up the CNN report again is because you brought up the Auburn Study, which another padded horse enthusiast brought up stating it was their proof that pads did not hurt the horses.  And yes, it was 20 years ago, but Time Magazine said essentially the same in a very recent article.

Unless that study is a second one, done by the same university, and done more recently, there is a discrepency in what CNN reported that study said and what you are saying.

But I have to say, horses are ALL ABOUT MOVEMENT, and frankly counter-arguments being given to us that are supposed to make us feel better...i.e. horses aren't being chemmed any more...don't, when we're told instead that the horse is only worked 15-20 minutes a day or that the curly hair on the legs is not from chems but from grease to keep the chains from leaving marks and from being being wrapped to keep the horses from "stocking up" because they are required to stay in their stalls an inappropriate amount of time for the health of the animal. 

Actually I think what many of us are trying to do is to defend the breed.  Tennessee Walkers are more than padded horses.  There is nothing more beautiful than seeing a TW so relaxed in his gait that he moves down the trail or around a show ring without sweating profusely or snorting or looking wild-eyed.  Yes, I have been to TW padded shows and been in a few show barns, and unfortunately followed the advice of a few when I first got my horse.  It never ceases to amaze me how quickly the padded horses get lathered up and sweaty with only a few turns around the ring when all the walkers  I know can move down a trail at a good clip, maybe some sweat but almost never heavy breathing or exhaustion at the end of a pretty grueling 5 hour trail ride.  There is something wrong here.  And by the way, I don't like the heavy plantation shoes either. 

I believe the vast majority of TW owners feel they have nothing in common and cannot connect with an organization that promotes padded horses, fills their magazine cover to cover with them at the neglect of those activities that do appeal to the majority of TW owners, versatility, flat shod, trail events, etc.  I believe if TWHBEA would see the light, reorganize to meet the needs and concerns of the majority of TW breeders, I think their membership would be stronger.

The American Quarter Horse Association, American Paint Horse Association both have very impressive membership numbers and certainly aren't short on the number of shows and show enthusiasts in their organizations.  Their shows are diverse and represent the wide interests of their membership.  Hmmmm, and no padded horses...

 

 

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 Posted: Tue Sep 19th, 2006 04:03 am
   
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twhsandy
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Of course you'd prefer not to have to defend the breed, let the celebration of cruelty continue, and nothing change.  Well lady, don't count on it.    It isn't the breed that needs defending, it's the inhumane practices done to the breed you try to defend.  So too much attention being called to the problem at the Celebration, people being hit in the pocketbook?  Well good, whatever it takes to stop the Celebration of Cruelty!  I couldn't care less if the sore/stack people starve, personally.  Soring and stacking is dying, get over it.

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 Posted: Tue Sep 19th, 2006 02:08 am
   
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DinValid1
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A 10 ounce chain is an illegal weight of chain. There is a study in their literature cited. Maybe there was another study done. I'll try to get ahold of the TWHBEA but they are pretty swamped right now. It's in one of their brochures on the padded horse. As a youth I rode a 17 year old padded horse that had been padded since he was 2 and he had no problems whatsoever. Also, look at all of our classic horses(classic horse=horse over 15). You can't have tendonitis and do the gait. The horse must be in tip top condition to perform padded or it will show. Also, a horse cannot pass inspections with lesions under any circumstances (not even a small callous can pass!). So why would trainers do something to the horse that makes it unpassable. You can't start a horse that has never had pads on with a large pad and load it up with weight!! I don't know if during this study the horse was gradually worked up to a larger pad or not. Lesions would not have passed even 10+ years ago. Have you looked at a voice or been to a padded horse show? I see no hoof abnormalities. In addition it was not mentioned whether a lubricant was used when working the horse. I've personally used martins medicated show grease as a lubricant and it works great! My horses feet are perfect. A show horse is only ridden for 15 minutes per day which is probably a lot shorter than a lay person would work them. If you want pads banned because you feel that they put strain on the horse. You'll have to ban horse racing and barrel racing as well.  There are greater injuries in those fields. Also, do you realize that the CNN report was done 20 years ago!! Than again I am on an all natural site complaining about this, but you all have the topic. I don't mean tobe cruel, but maybe you all should focus on commanding more money for your horses and try to draw more of a crowd to your shows. Maybe more people would be interested in pleasure horses then.

Last edited on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 03:45 am by DinValid1

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 Posted: Tue Sep 19th, 2006 12:11 am
   
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Fargos Handmaiden
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Are you talking about the Auborn University Study ordered by the Department of Agriculture prior to the 1986 CNN Broadcast?

If that is the case there is a discrepency in what the Association is reporting that study said and what CNN read in the report from that same study.

According to CNN, quoting the Auborn study, "four-inch stacks caused tendonitis and hoof abnormalities and ten-ounce chains caused swelling and liesons within ten days.

You can argue that the chains in the shows are now limited to six ounces, but ten ounce and heavier are still used by trainers outside the show ring for training.

 

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 Posted: Mon Sep 18th, 2006 09:57 pm
   
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DinValid1
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No problem, thanks for being so courteous ;) Let me comment on the situation at The Celebration. The three horses that passed should have competed. The fact that the WGC was called off has garnered too much attention! This is putting a very bad light on our breed. I think that the Celebration and the TWHBEA acted admirably in giving the 3 that passed 1st place prize money and the breeders' for taking the stance that the ones that passed should have shown. Here's hoping for a better start at next years Celebration. I would prefer not to have to constantly defend the breed in the future.

Last edited on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 11:07 pm by DinValid1

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 Posted: Mon Sep 18th, 2006 09:55 pm
   
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jstarr1444
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Thanks, maybe I can find it through AU. 

I appreciate the information.

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 Posted: Mon Sep 18th, 2006 09:41 pm
   
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DinValid1
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A pad nor a chain is all that heavy. Especially to a large horse. Again I know a lot of pleasure people that ride with a plantation shoe and that is heavier! It was an Auburn University Study I don't have the exacts memorized. The TWHBEA will give you the reference, but I think they are dealing with more pressing matters right now. I'm not going to convince you all that pads are o.k. any more than you can convince me they are not. I just believe what my eyes tell me and that's it. Too many people enjoy the pads for them to disappear. Please remember research done on a quarter horse is not the same. TWHs have been bred for generations to be padded and I believe they are well suited. To be honest, with the QHs large structure and bulkiness they could never handle it.

Last edited on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 09:57 pm by DinValid1

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 Posted: Mon Sep 18th, 2006 09:08 pm
   
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jstarr1444
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DinValid1 wrote: There has also been a study saying that pads and chains cause no adverse effects. It's in the TWHBEA literature.
Please specifically cite this research.  I have contacted TWHBEA and USDA and neither have responded.  I have contacted everyone that has cited this type of research and no one has been able to give me the reference.   I have done this on both sides of the debate.  I am aware of the barrel racing research.  I've read Wickler's "Energetic and Kinematic Consequences of Weighting the Distal Limb" and am aware they only looked at oxygen consumption and not injury. 

Could you please give me the author, journal and date of this research?

Thanks!!

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 Posted: Mon Sep 18th, 2006 06:09 pm
   
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DinValid1
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Did you know that most of the bowed tendon and stifle problems treated by vets in this country are from barrel racers. Please see article in the Walking Horse Report:

http://www.walkinghorsereport.com/content.aspx?cid=3874

Quote from above article:

"I’ve spoken to two prominent veterinarians in middle Tennessee, Dr. John Bennett, who I mentioned earlier, and Dr. Jim Baum, of Shelbyville, Tennessee. Both men told me they treat very few Walking Horses for lameness or bowed tendons compared to other breeds they treat. Dr. Baum pointed out that the Walking Horses start out with a small shoe and gradually build up to a bigger shoe as the horse ages and their training progresses. Just like any athlete, any show horse or sport horse has the potential for physical ailments."



We have been padding TWH for 25 years and I have yet to see one crippled from pads. We had 56 horses in the Celebration over 15. The only reason that I can think of a horse being hurt from pads is if they are shod incorrectly by a farrier that doesn't know what they are doing.  You are mistaken if you think getting rid of pads will stop all soring. I've seen far more incidences of soring with a trainer trying to acheive a high stepping gait with a flat shod horse. To me it is more humane to use a pad and chain rather than chemicals. Actually a plantation shoe weighs more than a pad. The pad is mostly made of a hard plastic. I respect wanting to pleasure ride, but I believe the show ring is a necessary part of any breed. I'm sorry but if you want to ban pads you're erradicating the money from the industry. No one is going to pay thousands of dollars for a pleasure horse. There has also been a study saying that pads and chains cause no adverse effects. It's in the TWHBEA literature. Also, someone said that we hire the DQPs. The DQPs are employed by the National Horse Show Commission not the breeders association.  There would be fields and fields of lame horses in Shelbyville if what you are claiming is true. I live near Middle Tennessee and have been involved in the industry since I was 5 and have never seen one horse crippled from pads. Pads actually prevent thrush and laminitis. It's funny every pleasure person I see think that padded horses will be crippled by the time they are 5. Why would you spend thousands of dollars on a good padded horse just to ride it for a couple of years. I'm sorry no one is that crazy. He's Puttin on the Ritz was retired this year at the Celebration (1996 WGC) and there is an ad showing him winning at two and at his retirement ceremony at 15. He looked BETTER at 15. 

Last edited on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 09:08 pm by DinValid1

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 Posted: Mon Sep 11th, 2006 05:54 pm
   
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Fargos Handmaiden
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Well, message boards are good, I guess, but I think we need to get our voices out in the community too.  Among our TW horse people, seems everyone is lined up already on their preferred side of the "Mason-Dixon line".  It's educating the general public and getting "numbers" on our side and people in positions of authority that can make a difference, like the links I listed above.

OK, I have mixed emotions about listing that other board.  I know some of the monitors and, great people, they really have their hands full, keeping peace between the Padded and the Anti-Padded crowd, so please, if you post there, mark your words carefully.  At present, the thread is beginning to deteriorate into personal attacks, as usual.  These have been mostly by the Padded crowd because they know it is a sure way to stop the thread.  I let myself run in circles trying to answer some of their personal attacks until I figured out what was going on.  Now, I plan to ignore them and just keep on keeping on in as polite a manner as I can.  Please, your help would be appreciated but resolve to do the same and not let the "turkeys get you down."

http://p218.ezboard.com/bgaitedhorsesense

Then go to "Around the Campfire" and the thread is No TWH WGC. 

Connie

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 Posted: Mon Sep 11th, 2006 05:30 pm
   
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Fargos Handmaiden
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Dear Mary Ann.

I need to recheck the HPA page, but if the meeting dates given are for the coming 2007 year, I plan to be at my closest meeting in Dallas, April 17(????).  Check the site for dates.  I encourage others to be at theirs and politely but firmly state their cases.

So far, I have written my feelings about needing to ban padded horses to preserve the breed in the long run to the TWHBEA.  You can e-mail them through their site.

Based on the 20-yr.-old CNN report, apparently the Dept. of Ag. had a college study they ordered themselves that proved pads and chains alone do damage the horse.  I have written to the Dept. of Ag. asking why they have not acted on that info and asking that they do carry through with banning "weighted devices" and "chains" at shows.  Anyone wanting to do likewise can e-mail them at http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/!ut/p/_s.7_0_A/7_0_1OB?edeployment_action=changenav&navid=FEEDBACK_FORM.

It is important to keep heated emotion out of such letters but rather word them factually and in a polite manner or we'll just be written off as lunatics.  Numbers speak, so I hope others here will write as well.

I have also forwarded the old link of the CNN tape to 60 Minutes and 20/20.  There are still many of us that don't have cable.  I asked these two news magazines that in light of the recent upheaval at the Celebration, this story was worthy of an updated version to determine whether or not these practices have improved or gotten worse.  We already know the answer but let the news bloodhounds pick up the scent and you got a hunt!

I would likewise encourage others here to write these two major news magazines expressing a deep desire to see the subject covered thoroughly.

60m@cbsnews.com;audsvcs@cbs.com  (email address)

2020@abc.com   (email address)

I am posting a similar request and the links I mentioned above at my stable where there are two other Tenn. Walker owners and hopefully other outraged horse owners.

I'll be glad to do whatever will help.  Suggestions welcome.

Connie

 

Last edited on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 06:05 pm by Fargos Handmaiden

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 Posted: Mon Sep 11th, 2006 04:50 pm
   
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Hurleycane

 

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 Posted: Mon Sep 11th, 2006 05:21 am
   
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Fargos Handmaiden
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Found it.  Here's link to US Dept. of Agriculture. 

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/!ut/p/_s.7_0_A/7_0_1OB?navtype=MA&navid=CONTACT_US

Connie

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 Posted: Mon Sep 11th, 2006 05:10 am
   
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Fargos Handmaiden
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One thing I forgot.  In REWATCHING that old CNN report, it stated that in spite of a university-conducted study that showed pads alone and chains alone did damage to a horse, the Department of Agriculture (who ordered the study) did nothing to ban the use of weighted devices and chains on horses.

So I'm going to be looking for a link to send a letter to the Department of Agriculture also and hope everyone here will do the same.

OK, I'll shut up now.:?

Connie

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