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Soring at an all-time high at 2009 Celebration  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Wed Feb 2nd, 2011 07:03 pm
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crs trail rider
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You are absolutely correct that there is abuse in many breed associations. QH/Stock breeds have their own form of torture for the horse- from tail blocking (so the tail wont move) draw reins, tying the head around to the side, tying the head up all night to tire out the neck muscles- running the crap out of them all night so they are so tired they move slow cause they are exhausted.

The TWH -the abuse is just more visable with the pads/shoes/soring. I quit showing in the stock breeds due to not wanting to do what it took to win (to the horse- not the hard work)

I am constantly reminding my teenage daughter that she needs to be mad at herself when the horse screws up- because she didnt work on fixing it before the competition (judged trail rides) Not to take it out on the horse because she didnt get her signals straight before attempting the obstacle.

I have seen - even in the RMH- incorrect angles on the hoof in the attempt to get the gait. You guy just might have been asked a different way to pick up his feet.

A horse can be registered as a Rocky by birth but not certified if they cannot meet certain criteria. Like height or gait, or too much white. But both parents must now be a RMH (I believe) you can go to the RMHA's website- the rule book is available for everyone to see.



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Its rarely the horses fault- Its usually a failure of the rider to communicate their requests in a manner that the horse can understand. Lisa
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 Posted: Wed Feb 2nd, 2011 06:46 pm
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GoldRush
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His vet papers say Kentucky Natural Gaited.  I haven't received the registered papers from the owner yet.  I think the website said Kentucky Mountain.  The very little I know is that in order to be considered a Rocky Mountain the gelding has to be 14-2.  Under that, and Choco's 14-1, is considered a Kentucky Mountain.  This is all entirely new stuff for me.

What is daisy clipper?  Choco doesn't have the really high knee action that I think everyone is talking about.  He "wings" with his front feet instead of breaking over the toe.  Is that what you mean?

I've been thinking about this since yesterday and it's not just this breed that is abused.  The Quarter Horse people that ride in the western pleasure classes tie their horses' heads way up in the stall so that it is such a relief when they are untied that the carry their heads really low.  They will also ride their horses all night long so that they are so tired when they get in the ring that they are literally dead on their feet.  All to win points.

Hunter/jumpers are routinely whacked on the shins so that they tuck their feet under themselves over jumps.

The state fairgrounds are only 20 minutes from my house so I have the opportunity to see a lot of different breeds being shown.  I love the people, usually girls, beating the crap out of their horses with a crop because their horse didn't perform the way they wanted him to.  All I can think is, "Guess you should have trained better at home, huh?"

This past summer the ASPCA was making rounds at the fair.  Good for them!  One guy I know - and despise - was caught with his horse's jaw wired shut so that it couldn't chew on the bit.  Many years ago, when I had just bought my first mare she only had two speeds:  fast and faster.  The trainer's answer was a pelham (I was riding English in those days).  Finally, a guy came over from France from the riding school there and put her in a simple snaffle.  I thought he was crazy at first but my mare settled right down.

GR

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 Posted: Wed Feb 2nd, 2011 06:16 pm
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crs trail rider
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Goldrush- what breed is Choco?

I'm asking because Choco is a popular name in the Rocky's (RMH) and they are not suppose to ever be padded or keg shod - not if you want to show RMHA. There is even a huge hoopla going on right now about people wanting the "daisy clipper" way of moving over any knee lift what so ever.



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Its rarely the horses fault- Its usually a failure of the rider to communicate their requests in a manner that the horse can understand. Lisa
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 Posted: Tue Feb 1st, 2011 09:43 pm
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GoldRush
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Okay.  I've read just about enough that my stomach can handle!  I just found this thread this afternoon - we're snowed in again here in NJ.  I too did a little research and never realized until now that this crap was going on.  I've never had a gaited horse before.  Now it makes me wonder if this was why Choco would turn away from me at first.  It is also difficult to pick up his front hooves.  Once you get it into position and begin to clean it with a hoof pick he relaxes.  Prior to this it's like picking up a sack of bricks - totally stiff legged.  Is what I'm describing familiar to anyone?  He has keg shoes on right now and I had talked to Jim about pulling them especially since the weather is so bad here and those shoes amount to a pair of ice skates without the edges or toe picks!  The previous owner told me that Choco only had shoes on because they were selling him.  He quite often was barefoot.  He said that he had a really good hoof so he really didn't need the shoes.  The farm where I board is on the Delaware River and the arena is river sand.  The cornfield across the road is also that fine sand.  We would have to trailer anywhere to get to decent trails - there are miles and miles of cinderbed railroad tracks - without the rails - that criss-cross all of Sussex County.  Depending on the frequency I could see a need for front shoes for that.

I understand that some horses just need shoes in order to be sound.  Jim's QH's go totally lame without their shoes; they can't take the pressure of the direct ground on the soles of their feet.  My last horse, Tribute, was barefoot all his life.  The only time he would be sore was if the blacksmith cut him back too much on a trim.

Can anyone help me out here?  Since Tribute was a foal from my mare I knew his total history.  Now I'm in unchartered waters.  Eric Adams acquired Choco from somebody, trained him and sold him.  Then I bought him.  That's at least four different people he's passed through.  I do have a video of him being ridden and he doesn't exhibit the exaggerated gait that I think you are describing.  I can send it PM if anybody wants to examine it.  The thought that he has been mistreated is so depressing!  What I'm thinking is that he originally didn't make the grade and was sold to Eric for eventual resale.

GR

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 Posted: Sat Jan 1st, 2011 07:05 am
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SunnysMum
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whattarack wrote: I think you are right, Jimmy. I wonder if the Ford Motor Company can still ask their dealerships not to sponsor the event or at least not to allow the Ford logo to be used on any media for the event. ?
While the Dealerships are independantly owned,they're still part of the franchise. And the over all impact of their decisions does affect Ford Motor Company as a whole. So I am sure if they were aware of what was going on the Corporate would make them stop.



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 Posted: Fri Dec 31st, 2010 06:59 pm
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softride
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I know that this is late in reply.  I hate the soring and have been fighting built ups sine the early 70's.   I would love to take every one of those people and put them in 4 heels and not let them take them off, make them prance around an arena. 

But enough said about that!  The problem with soring and pads is GREED!!  Money is what makes that part of the industry successful.  You will notice that most, not all, of the "winners" are big money people in the walking horse industry.  People pay BIG BUCKS for these trainers which get their farms in the public eye.  The walking horse is a commodity that can be thrown away when they are no longer needed.  Just like greyhounds, thoroughbred, standardbreds and any horse that is not making it "big" in any type of showing! 

The judges at these shows definitely show favor to those that have been in the industry or any that can offer payoffs. 

The public must be made aware of more than the soring at the shows. 
What goes on at the barns is awful.  I've seem 18 month olds with shoes on with all four feet within a circle the size of a small feed bucket.  

The only problem is that the walking horses are not the only horses that have a problem.  Morgans with ginger put up their tales, hackney ponies with their feet 6" long and chains to give them that high step.  Quarters with their tails de-nerved, this is just a short list.

Humans can be a cruel race. 

I hope that I have offended enough people to get  you involved in bring to light  to your neighbor, friend, family and anyone else  that will listen the horrors that happen to all horses, not just the Tennessee Walking horse.



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 Posted: Fri Jul 16th, 2010 04:53 pm
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liteshodwalkers
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jimmy wrote: Maybe! I know you know there is alot of rich powerful people in the buisness. I believe that is the only reason the buisness is still here.
That's the sad truth :(   Big money and ignorance is a dangerous combination.

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 Posted: Fri Jul 16th, 2010 01:55 pm
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jimmy
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Maybe! I know you know there is alot of rich powerful people in the buisness. I believe that is the only reason the buisness is still here.

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 Posted: Fri Jul 16th, 2010 01:22 pm
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whattarack
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I think you are right, Jimmy. I wonder if the Ford Motor Company can still ask their dealerships not to sponsor the event or at least not to allow the Ford logo to be used on any media for the event. ?



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 Posted: Fri Jul 16th, 2010 01:09 pm
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jimmy
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I'm not sure but I think the Ford ads or not from the company but local dealerships, of which the owner are in the buisness. Most if not all advertising done at the Celebration are show people.

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 Posted: Fri Jul 16th, 2010 03:25 am
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SunnysMum
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Actually if someone went in and contacted the rep that is associated with Ford and provided information. Or even if you guys wanted to go a much bigger route, find who the rep is, and then contact some of the bigger animal rights orgs. Tell them that Ford is supporting animal cruelty and let them to do the work.



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 Posted: Thu Jul 15th, 2010 08:32 pm
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liteshodwalkers
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Brenda Im wrote: Bonnie,

I would certainly never suggest you would sore, or condone soring.  And I'm aware that some lite shod competitors do not exaggerate the length/weight of their horses' feet - kudos to you!

I'm just philosophically opposed to any exaggerated techniques for enhancing gait, and some Lite Shod competitors DO have horses with very long hooves and weightier shoes.  It's certainly a far cry from Big Lick - and better, IMO, than Plantation shoes - so please understand I'm not placing them all in the same category.  I apologize if you felt that was the case.

PB r1

Thanks Brenda :D

I totally agree with you about the exaggerated techniques and the very long hooves and weightier shoes that some people have/do to their horses.  I am appalled with those that , first of all, own Big Licks, and second take this same horse from Big Lick, to plantation, to lite shod in the matter of a day or so just so they can win a class.  I can say that with the club that I a member of, NO BIG LICKS are allowed, and the number of plantation horses has dropped to ZERO . . .WOO HOO!  I have witnessed on rare occasion, a judge that will dismiss a horse in the liteshod class if they exhibit too much animation.  If a judge is doing their job correctly and following the rule book a true flatshod, kegshod or liteshod horse should NOT exhibit artifical animation at all.  I applauded that particular judge for doing what was the correct thing to do. 

On the flip side, I do know some folks that have rescued prior Big Lick horses and have tried to take them into the liteshod classes.  These same horses still exhibited the artifical animation but were allowed to stay in the class.  IMHO they should have been told to move up to the plantation classes even though they are now keg shod or liteshod.

If we can reform one BIG LICK owner at a time we are winning.  If we can convince the big money sponsors that what they are backing is extreme cruelty to the max and have them pull back their sponsorship, we win BIG.  My fear and/or concern is that big sponsors (i.e. Ford) probably have ownership or a part of a syndication on a lot of the big name BIG LICKS.  We all have to keep trying.

BTW - Keith Dane (FOSH) is/was a long standing member of the twh club here in Maryland.  He is a wonderful person and strong advocate for the sound horse.

 


 

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 Posted: Thu Jul 15th, 2010 01:19 pm
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SunnysMum
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This all is partially why I love my American Walking Ponies so much. The Association as a whole does not permit the use of artificial gait inhancing devices of any kind. The hooves are not permited to be any longer than 3-4" (including the shoe which can't be any longer than a 1/4" inch) at the most and it's only in accordance to the over all confirmation of the pony. We ocassionally take lengths of elastic ( 1/8" - 1/4" width) that are loose and put craft barrel shapped beads and bells either in the mane, on the breast plates or on extreamly rare ocassions loosely around the front ankles but not to inhanse gait, just breifly to help pony and rider understand the sound of the gait. But that's it. The association has confiscated on one ocassion four ponies from a breeder for violating the rules and misstreating the ponies. We take their over all health and soundness on the long term very seriously.



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 Posted: Thu Jul 15th, 2010 12:04 am
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BrendaImus
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Bonnie,

I would certainly never suggest you would sore, or condone soring.  And I'm aware that some lite shod competitors do not exaggerate the length/weight of their horses' feet - kudos to you!

I'm just philosophically opposed to any exaggerated techniques for enhancing gait, and some Lite Shod competitors DO have horses with very long hooves and weightier shoes.  It's certainly a far cry from Big Lick - and better, IMO, than Plantation shoes - so please understand I'm not placing them all in the same category.  I apologize if you felt that was the case.

PB r1



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 Posted: Wed Jul 14th, 2010 10:27 pm
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liteshodwalkers
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Brenda Im wrote: Oh no, I tried going barefoot with my horses - and in the best of all worlds would certainly do so.  But we have very soft ground here, and though I created stony walking paths through the horse's pasture, their feet never toughened up enough to go without boots (our trails are extremely rocky).  Then, every ride I took, a boot would fall off and ruin the ride.  So I gave up going barefoot and have my horses front feet shod every 6-8 weeks, with time off from November thru April or May.

Plantation and Lite Shod horses go with long hooves and heavy shoes, which is why I'm opposed to them.  A keg shoe - just enough to protect the horse and not to "enhance" the gait, should be sufficient.

PB r1


Brenda, I respectfully deny what you are saying about liteshod shoes.  I have shown my walkers with this type of shoe and did NOT have long hooves.  The shoe I used is no bigger in dimension than a keg shoe. 

Yes, there are some that have a longer foot than what I feel is right.  However, I am not one of them and sure as heck do not condone soring.

bonnie

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 Posted: Wed Jul 14th, 2010 08:51 pm
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BrendaImus
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Oh no, I tried going barefoot with my horses - and in the best of all worlds would certainly do so.  But we have very soft ground here, and though I created stony walking paths through the horse's pasture, their feet never toughened up enough to go without boots (our trails are extremely rocky).  Then, every ride I took, a boot would fall off and ruin the ride.  So I gave up going barefoot and have my horses front feet shod every 6-8 weeks, with time off from November thru April or May.

Plantation and Lite Shod horses go with long hooves and heavy shoes, which is why I'm opposed to them.  A keg shoe - just enough to protect the horse and not to "enhance" the gait, should be sufficient.

PB r1



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 Posted: Wed Jul 14th, 2010 08:16 pm
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cedarbarn
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I have come to a formal decision NOT to register my horses with TWHBEA until, or unless, they take a strong public stand against Big Lick horses, and stop sponsoring BL show classes. People who have been cited for violating the HPA should not be eligible to serve on their Board of Directors, and those offenders who are on the Board should be removed.


Bravo! I salute you, Brenda, and pray that others have the courage to follow suit.

A few years ago, when I purchased G, I joined TWHBEA just to see how it had evolved since my previous membership in the 70s. I was appalled and disgusted, not to mention sickened by the photos and vowed that I would never again send them any money or business. Not that my decision made any difference to them, but if a few hundred or thousand people did that, they would notice. And yes, I joined FOSH instead.

And thanks for the info on the Big Lick logo-maybe a new tee shirt is in order? I like "Kick the Big Lick" as a slogan to go with it, too! Maybe somebody with graphics skills could work that up,,,,



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 Posted: Wed Jul 14th, 2010 07:53 pm
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Ice House
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Brenda,  virtually everyone that shows walking horses consistently in front of the government has been ticketed.  If you show enough its only a matter of time.  You have to take into account that  the inspection process, although I think is improving, can be overly strict.  Of the three horses I have running in the pasture, I might risk taking one in front of the government.  If they have a nick anywhere you are ticketed.  THAT is wrong.

So putting everyone that has a ticket into one box and labeling them as abusers is ignorant in my opinion.

I don't take anything off of the humane society's website as fact...  I know the USDA releases this but I can't find the actual documents.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 14th, 2010 05:01 pm
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goranbockman
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Brenda Im wrote: Icey,  the stats are on the Humane Society's website: http://www.humanesociety.org/news/news/2009/09/cruelest_horse_show_091709.html

PB r1


Hi Brenda,

I understand you are against any shoes on horses. Given what you're fighting I totally respect that, and if I was living where you live I would probably adopt the same attitude. However, here in Europe, we are blessed with the absence of such abuses as surround the Big Lick scene, so I take a more moderate approach. More power to you! :D



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 Posted: Wed Jul 14th, 2010 04:20 pm
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BrendaImus
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I have not registered my last two foal crops with TWHBEA, because I simply cannot condone or support an organization that has such a lax policy regarding soring, and that still promotes the inhumane "Big Lick" horse.  Until now I haven't publicly announced my withdrawal, because I fear having high-quality, pure-bred walking horses that are not registered will not only affect their future value, but may affect their future - period.

However, I just came across this information: 

Of 115 people on the Board of Directors[of TWHBEA] in 2007, 43 of them had violations, and the trend continues today. Not only do violators serve on the Board of Directors both past and present, but they are also integral in many affiliated Horse Industry Organizations which are responsible for enforcing the very laws that they have been guilty of violating.

I have come to a formal decision NOT to register my horses with TWHBEA until, or unless, they take a strong public stand against Big Lick horses, and stop sponsoring BL show classes.  People who have been cited for violating the HPA should not be eligible to serve on their Board of Directors, and those offenders who are on the Board should be removed.

Instead, I am going to register them with the National Walking Horse Association (NWHA), an organization that is opposed to the Big Lick (though regrettably they still promote so-called "Plantation" and "Lite Shod" horses).

PB r1



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