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Gaits of Gold Gaited Horse Community Messageboard > Brenda Imus Questions and Answers > Hoof Talk > Navicular? Bad feet - what to do? |
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Gaits of Gold Gaited Horse Community Messageboard > Brenda Imus Questions and Answers > Hoof Talk > Navicular? Bad feet - what to do? |
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| Navicular? Bad feet - what to do? | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 2nd, 2010 09:52 am |
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1st Post |
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ozhorse G.O.G Community Member
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I was reading a forum post a few days ago and a light went on in my head about my best horse Smarty. He is tripping all the time, not to fall, but just constant little trips and fumbles, my vet noticed it last time he saw him but I hadn’t been thinking about it because I guess he does it all the time and I have got used to it. It is worse when first saddled up – later in a ride he is better, which is a concern in itself. He also steps short (but has always been short strided so I cant tell) I think Smarty is possibly heading for navicular syndrome. He is 14 now and I have had him since he was 5. He has always had bad feet that need shoes and poor hoof structure. He had laminitis 2 ½ years ago unrelated to feed, we don’t know why. The farrier thinks road founder from being barefoot and having boots on for a 2 hour ride a week before the laminitis attack. I have tried shoes, barefoot ( and with boots) and also Cytek shoes (UK idea which you can Google). I have problems with all. I don’t know what to do next. With Shoes He has always been shod when in regular work. He spent a year with a horse trainer (cutting ) who rode mostly in an arena and has almost all his horses barefoot – he kept my guy in shoes because he felt he needed to. Smarty is pastured with my three other horses (who are all barefoot and ride well barefoot), that gallop around a lot, on dry rocky ground. I have felt I have to keep him shod even when not in work because he is sore and it is not fair to have him bruise his feet galloping around to keep up with the other horses. Consequences while wearing shoes: Flaring and white line separation and hoof breakage and bad hoof shape. Barefoot I had him barefoot for 2 ½ years, living alone on soft ground and trail ridden occasionally on hard ground in Old Macs boots. I trim myself so I kept him trimmed regularly and short and maintained the “mustang roll” and had the farrier do him a few times a year as well. He was always ouchy when walked off grass and onto dirt. Even in hoof boots he was only just OK for occasional 2 hr rides. ( I found the boots slip badly on wet clay on a trail ride). Consequences barefoot: One hoof in particular flared at the front, and became flatter, we could not stop it. He was always tender footed. He had a laminitis attack in the end that the farrier thinks was road founder from being barefoot, I really don’t know. Cytek Shoes I saw these on someone elses horse and thought that they were going to be the solution for my guy. Also the farrier who treated him for laminitis is a Cytek farrier. They are a sole shoe not a rim shoe and are very different. I have had problems with them. Perhaps the problems are that I am shoeing him myself and not using a farrier because 1) I have moved way into the country and it is hard to get any farrier and the “Horse flu” outbreak was on for 6 months and farriers were quarantined and 2) Local farriers don’t shoe Cytek. So if I wanted them I had to do it myself. My horses feet are not symmetrical, never have been, and the Cytek shoes cant be shaped and I cant get them on straight because of his asymmetrical feet so I don’t think the breakover is right. Consequences: He is brushing and scarring his fetlocks so how I am putting them on is altering the flight path of his legs. He is not just sore, but lame, if I pull the shoes, trim his feet, and walk him on dirt. When I have left the shoes off between shoeing overnight (to take photos, email the Cytek farrier and get feedback on his feet) I have had to put him in a soft dirt yard for a week three times to get over it once shod again because he is so sore. If I put the shoes straight back on he does not go lame. Good side is that his hoof walls are straighter with no white line problems and the shape has come back well after the laminitis. Also his soles are well protected and don’t get bruised (but I think his soles get might get too soft, always being under a shoe, thus causing lameness with the shoe off). Help I can get: My local vet is sensible but is a minimal interventionist and if the leg is not falling off and the problem not obvious he will just say he cant do anything. The local farrier is really hard to get to come. I cant ask him to come just to shoe two front feet only for a 140km round trip. I guess I can but I will just have to pay him $100+ to shoe two feet every 6 weeks, that is cheaper than losing the horse so it will have to be done. I have been waiting a few weeks for the farrier to come and he is not answering his phone over Christmas. His standard shoes have been on too long as a consequence so I took them off yesterday. He is sore but the shoes were inside his hoof wall and pressing on his corns so he was going to be damaged by the shoes anyway and now he will be sore and bruised by not having shoes (I don’t get a good choice either way). There is such a difference between his flat, splayed, soft soled, no wall, black rotting whiteline, sqeeze-his-heels-with-my-fingers type feet and my other three who have mustang hard smooth tough rock crunchers. I guess to start with I am not sure if there is a degenerative bone problem or something developing other than just his usual sore feet with bad shape. The tripping and possible short strides at trot are concerning me. Perhaps one foot being more splayed than the other shows he is putting more weight on it so the unsplayed foot might be the sore one? I can’t pick lameness other than he has started to drop his left shoulder and lean loping circles to the left over the last 5 years when he was always very straight when younger. Has anyone here got any ideas? I am short on them. I dont even know if I have a degenerative problem or not? Any experience with navicular syndrome? Fixing it?
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| Posted: Sat Jan 2nd, 2010 01:48 pm |
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2nd Post |
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whattarack Pasture Boss 
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Hello Ozhorse, I'm very sorry to read of your troubles. At one time we had a resident farrier on the message board. She has not been active for a long time now. Of course I don't know anything about the lameness your horse is suffering but I did find this old topic and thought it would help you some. http://www.gaitsofgold.com/wowbb/forum47/4730.html Best wishes, Whattarack
____________________ Being Offended is Optional. |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 2nd, 2010 03:13 pm |
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3rd Post |
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MTRA872 G.O.G Community Member
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I guess to start with I am not sure if there is a degenerative bone problem or something developing other than just his usual sore feet with bad shape. The tripping and possible short strides at trot are concerning me. Perhaps one foot being more splayed than the other shows he is putting more weight on it so the unsplayed foot might be the sore one? I can’t pick lameness other than he has started to drop his left shoulder and lean loping circles to the left over the last 5 years when he was always very straight when younger. When a barefoot horse has one foot that splays out over time, it is almost always the result of chronic pain in the unsplayed foot. I do not believe, however, that it is navicular disease, because you describe that he gets better later in the ride. Horses with navicular disease always get worse later in the ride. Horses that get better later in a ride are usually suffering from some sort of arthritis, which could be anywhere in the leg. So I think you are dealing with two separate issues: 1) poor quality feet and 2) chronic pain, likely from arthritis. Have you had any flexion tests or nerve blocks done, or x-rays done on his feet? These are essential in pinpointing the source of the pain when it is not blatently apparent. If you don't have access to these kinds of diagnostics, have you tried using a trial course of bute or Equioxx to see if his performance issues improve? Looking at the poor quality, tender feet as a separate issue, in spite of all the barefoot hype, there are some horses that just cannot go barefoot without being sore. The problem with being shod year round, as you discovered, is the the hoof wall deteriorates over time. Many horses in this situation will benefit from a 3 to 4 month barefoot period before being shod again for the remainder of the year. Do you have an "off season" where you don't ride as much, that he could be left barefoot? I went to the Cytek web site but didn't get much information, as it is under construction. Something similar you might try is an aluminum Natural Balance shoe. They can be slightly shaped which may help you get it to fit better on an asymmetrical foot, and because they are lightweight, they will not alter the flight of the foot as much as a steel shoe, which in turn decreases interfering. I have, in my own horses, also seen a dramatic improvement in overall hoof quality by feeding a Purina supplement called Nature's Essentials Freebalance 12:12. It takes a year for a new, better quality hoof to grow out, but in my experience it is far better and way more economical that biotin.
____________________ "And on the Seventh Day...we went trail riding!" |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 2nd, 2010 06:27 pm |
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4th Post |
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sdlepal Ranch Hand 
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My daughter had a quarter horse she barrel raced and she tripped all the time. When we had her checked out it was navicular. Our vet who specializes in horses took xrays to confirm what was going on. The horse had surgery to "block the nerve". Back in the early 90's that was the going thing to do for a horse with this problem. The surgery lasted around 7 years and she was back to the same problem but retired from contesting. She got so bad that another surgery was out of the question so we had to put her down. I am sure there are better methods of treatment these days. But you need to find a vet who specializes in horses. I know the kind of vet you have, we have one like that too we use for minor things. Hope you can get the help you need for your horse.
____________________ Pam and Cowboy Casey |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 3rd, 2010 03:22 am |
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5th Post |
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ozhorse G.O.G Community Member
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Thanks, your replies have given me something I can work with. I read through the old articles which were helpful too. I should investigate possible arthritis elsewhere as well. He has only been ridden intermittently over the last few years and that might hide a developing arthritic problem. He has every reason to have problems. He had two years full time training as a reining horse before he was 4 and is a hard stopper. He had one year full time training as a cutting horse when he was 8. I think I will get my vet to do a full investigation of his soundness when he is out next, not just the feet. The course of Bute to see if he is in pain is a very good idea, simple and effective, Ill get some from the vet when he comes. I dont ride much over winter so I should plan in a few months every year when he is left with no shoes. He has had his shoes off for 48 hours now and is not a happy boy. I can tell he is standing funny and is cranky but he will still trots and canters with the others and it is not very notiecable but is moving a bit off. I think being aware he is not comfy has got me leaving his shoes on all the time. I don't like the idea of him being sore in the paddock but it might be necessary. Two 25 year old horses have just arrived to stay here. I should turn him out with them so he isn't forced to run around so much. I should probably start some supplementary feeding for minerals too. They stay fat here on pasture but I know the soil is deficient in some minerals and elements as I have to treat the cattle. I will look for the supplements you suggest but Im not sure we get the same products in Australia. I forget if I am allowed to mention other sites? the Cytek shoe site is cytekhorse.com.au They are good shoes for preventing wall deterioration and flaring and ligament problems and protecting soft soles on rough country. My issues with them might be my lack of skill in putting them on. I dont think they are the answer for everything but they are a good option to know about to fix a problem. Thanks so much for your feedback
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| Posted: Sun Jan 3rd, 2010 04:23 am |
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6th Post |
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TN Trailrider G.O.G Community Member 
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I've never had a horse with navicular (two with ringbone), but know folks who have had that problem. My undrstanding of it is that with exercise, the pain lessens, but I may be wrong. Shoeing to support the hoof is recommended I believe. I'm anxious to see the comments about navicular so I can learn more. Also, I've found that with arthritis, exercise also lessens the pain. I think x-rays would be a good choice. The soreness and tripping, as well as the short stride, were the first symptoms both of mine had when they developed ringbone. Is there any kind of a lump above the coronary band? If so, you may be looking at ringbone. There is nothing you can do for it.
____________________ Lynne |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 3rd, 2010 02:07 pm |
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7th Post |
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McKTX7 G.O.G Community Member
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TN Trailrider wrote:I've never had a horse with navicular (two with ringbone), but know folks who have had that problem. My undrstanding of it is that with exercise, the pain lessens, but I may be wrong. Shoeing to support the hoof is recommended I believe. I'm anxious to see the comments about navicular so I can learn more. Also, I've found that with arthritis, exercise also lessens the pain. From what I have researched, the "Natural Barefoot Trim" would be the way to go,, not shoes! Google navicular and natural trim and see what research you can find. A lot of times it is good to research on your own and not rely on solely the vet or your regular trimmer. I think sometimes (not always depending on the person) they can get in a box and not see outside it or other ways to attack a problem. Just food for thought.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14th, 2010 10:02 pm |
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8th Post |
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ozhorse G.O.G Community Member
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An update on my fellow. The farrier and I had a session with the horse. He showed me that because this horse has such flat feet, that if enough toe is cut off the give the correct foot angle, that there is not enough sole to stop him being sore barefoot. He recomends leaving the horse some months every year with no shoes and dont ride him to give his feet a rest from shoes. This farrier reckons that horses are right and left sided like people are (duh, I know that) and that one foot being a little flatter than the other is fairly normal and that the flatter side will be his favoured side. I have ridden him a fair bit and I cant pick an actual lameness. His tripping is still there but his recent re-shoeing seems to have helped. He still seems to be not quite right to me. Just a feeling I have about a horse I know well. I have given them all a fresh drench with a drug I havent used for years and Ill give them another. It is a drought so I will try a sand colic preventative to see if that helps. Any other suggestions for a horse that just seems a bit off? and not as happy or galloping about as much as usual? Last edited on Sun Feb 14th, 2010 10:06 pm by ozhorse |
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15th, 2010 01:02 am |
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9th Post |
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whattarack Pasture Boss
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Any other suggestions for a horse that just seems a bit off? and not as happy or galloping about as much as usual?Has nothing to do with his feet, but does he get his sheath cleaned on a regular basis? A bean can be quite painful and can cause a horse to act distressed.
____________________ Being Offended is Optional. |
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15th, 2010 02:41 am |
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10th Post |
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ozhorse G.O.G Community Member
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That is very insightful of you Whatta. He has had problems "down there" in the past when I was not taking much notice. He is as good as it is possible to be about handling the old fella as I can check for a bean in the paddock with no halter! He does not have a bean because I checked a few weeks ago but he is not good there at the best of times so I will give him a wash and see if that helps. The things we have to chat about here at times! Where else can we go that folks understand this sort of thing. Any more good ideas of things to check or try? I was looking at photos from last winter of the horses galloping around - he was in the lead. Nowdays he only gallops if the others have already gone off, and only to catch up and is not in the front often.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15th, 2010 03:24 am |
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11th Post |
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whattarack Pasture Boss
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Well, if it is possible, I'd ask the vet to test his blood for any problems. I'm so sorry he is not doing well. I sure wish he could tell you. I'll keep thinking on it and take it to prayer.
____________________ Being Offended is Optional. |
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15th, 2010 08:24 pm |
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12th Post |
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fireandice G.O.G Community Member 
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I don't see where x-rays have been done. Why? This is going to be your best friend, I don't care HOW good a farrier or vet claims to be, NONE of them can see inside the hoof. GET A SET OF X-RAYS and quit guessing. A proper set of x-rays will tell your farrier and your vet much needed objective information. Don't ask: DEMAND them! Best Wishes, Tina
____________________ My pony knows all my secrets. I braid my tears in his mane and whisper my dreams in his ears. |
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15th, 2010 11:29 pm |
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13th Post |
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crs trail rider Ranch Hand 
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As someone who has delt w/navicular syndrome for 13 years I can tell you a couple of things. It is a SYNDROME which means that there is no one cause, no one treatment, all of them present different. Essentially it is anything that affects the navicular bone. I have tried just about everything out there- except surgery- only because she is not a candidate. My girls navicular occured when she was 7. Usual present time is btwn ages 5-10 but can occur later. She was pretty sound for a couple of years and then I had more and more trouble keeping her sound. I pulled xrays at first for the diagnosis and then about 8 yrs later. the one 8 years later said the hole had closed up BUT she now has bone spurs coming off of both navicular bones into the deep flexor tendon. she is barefoot because she is retired. I cannot keep her sound I can keep her comfortable. She is on BL Pellets (buteless pellets) every day, bute when she needs it (sometimes she does) trim her very very frequently- no more than 5 weeks, she will never ever be stalled again, she cannot stand or laydown very long w/out difficulty walking. She does improve as she walks and after about 20 steps or so will walk nearly sound, but it is painful to watch her take those first couple of steps. She is still boss mare, and as long as she is enjoying life she is a beautiful pasture ornament. But I check ALL new purchases for navicular problems, they may show up later but I will never knowingly buy one. Its too painful to watch.
____________________ Its rarely the horses fault- Its usually a failure of the rider to communicate their requests in a manner that the horse can understand. Lisa |
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| Posted: Thu May 6th, 2010 12:29 pm |
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14th Post |
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ozhorse G.O.G Community Member
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To follow up on my thread I think my horse is fine. I asked my vet to x-ray my horses feet. He is very pragmatic and did not want to but did bring the machine. I showed him the horse with shoes on, then took them off and as I knew the horse was extremely sore with shoes off. Being pragmatic the vet just said don't look any further than the obvious problem which is his soft feet. I have only been riding occasionally for a while now so I didnt know what he was like ridden day after day. We went to a 2 day clinic, then a show the next day and he worked in the arena all weekend doing reining and was sound before, during and after. So it looks like I dont have a major soundness problem, I have the same old problem probably getting worse with age of very very soft feet. Do you have any suggestions for supplements or minerals for hoof strength? I know I need Selenium in this area. Does biotin really help? Zinc? He has been grass fed most of his life so could be missing things.
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| Posted: Thu May 6th, 2010 01:11 pm |
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15th Post |
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MTRA872 G.O.G Community Member
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I personally have not seen much difference feeding biotin. I have noticed a difference feeding a product called Nature's Essentials Free Balance 12:12 made by Purina. It is a calcium/phosphorus/trace mineral supplement formulated to balance grass or grass hay diets. When feeding a supplement, it will probably take a few months for you to notice a difference in the horse's soles and it takes a full year to grow out a new wall.
____________________ "And on the Seventh Day...we went trail riding!" |
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| Posted: Thu May 6th, 2010 05:35 pm |
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16th Post |
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TN Trailrider G.O.G Community Member
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About 6 years ago, my Appaloosa's feet went to h---. I left him unshod during the summer and that was the beginning of the downhill spiral. They were soft, the layers peeled off, and I couldn't keep shoes on him. I was at my wit's end and his hoofs were getting worse with time. It was suggested I have his thyroid checked, which I did. It was extremely low functioning. I put him on Thyroid medicine and got that back to appropriate range for him, and also switched to Purina's Enrich 12 which is just a vitamin supplement (as well as biotin which I subsequently quit last year), He must have been deficient in something, because the hoof quality slowly began to improve. He's pretty much retired now, and hasn't had shoes on in a year, and his hoofs are in great shape. I really think the Enrich 12 is what helped him.
____________________ Lynne |
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