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| Healthcare | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Thu Oct 15th, 2009 10:46 pm |
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1st Post |
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seabreeze G.O.G Community Member 
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The opinions on both sides of this issue are very strong. Feel free to elaborate in the Off Topic thread.
____________________ You know I only talk to you, Wilbur. -Mr. Ed |
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16th, 2009 01:10 am |
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2nd Post |
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GypsySusan G.O.G Community Member 
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No, but my opinion and that of all free Americans with any intelligence and the gumption to have any opinion that isn't "popular" won't make any difference in the way this issue is being crammed down our throats - just look at what happened with the popular vote in the last election?
____________________ Susan http://www.gypsytrotters.com Phil 4:11-13, 19 Missouri Fox Trotters: To Ride One... Is to Own One. |
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16th, 2009 02:31 pm |
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3rd Post |
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gaitedfan G.O.G Community Member
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No, but I was trapped into listening to a Town Hall meeting (aka Obama rah rah rally) yesterday and he stated "health reform will be signed by the end of this year". Thank goodness medical personnel from my current plan were close by for prompt treatment had I splint my head open whilst banging it against the wall.hb1
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17th, 2009 01:16 am |
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4th Post |
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dawnrider G.O.G Community Member 
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I work in the healthcare system, and I deal daily with fraud and abuse of the system by recipients of current government run healthcare (mostly medicaid). I also deal daily with recipients of Medicare who can no longer afford life-sustaining medications because of THAT reform. The folks who devise these programs do not live in the real world, no matter what their resume claims. When I think of our current government running a healthcare system, I am filled with dread and despair. The working populace will be bled white to pay for this travesty. Just MHO. Peg
____________________ "And this our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stone, and good in every thing. I would not change it." ~As You Like It, II.1~ |
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17th, 2009 06:53 pm |
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5th Post |
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4Square G.O.G Community Member 
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Has anyone ever put much thought into why health care has become so expensive? My own little numbskull opinion is that it has become so expensive because of both private and government medical insurance. Insurance companies have deeper pockets than the individual because they pool the premiums collected from the insured. Medical providers have been able to charge more and more because they can and they have "clients" big government insurance/private insurance who have all these resources to continue to pay their bills. When the profit ratio sinks for the insurers as the result of medical providers raising rates, they just pass on that inflation to the rates the insured have to pay. I believe that the salaries and services in the medical profession have become inflated because there has always been a resource capable of paying by pulling money out of the collective individual's pockets. My personal insurance for one person costs over 7k per year! It is part of the benefits package I have with my employer. In my worst year, maybe I used used 4k of services, which meant 3k of that money went to profit and to help pay for someone else's bills. Ever look at a breakdown of what is charged for things in the medical profession? It is way over-inflated. If the medical industry had to rely on people's own individual resources to pay their bills, they would not be able to jack up salaries and charges as high because they would not have the client base to afford it. My friend's husband works for a bank and does home loans. He said one doctor client of his makes more money in a month than the average person does in a year. I'm not saying that a good doctor should not be paid for his/her education and skill, but when a certain profession pulls 12x to 100x the salary of the average middle class person, there is an imbalance. The medical industry and profit has been partially built by exploiting the resources of private and government insurance. We have reached the point now in our society that medical services have become so expensive that the average person cannot afford to pay for it. Changing the system so that it comes out of everyone's collective pockets is not going to fix it if things continue to operate in the same fashion. In fact it will likely just become even more expensive as no one seems to have a problem bilking a deep pockets entity; they just seem to forget where the deep pockets come from. Unfortunately, the fix to this problem is not an easy one. Those who are reaping the profits of the current system are going to be reluctant to change. With government stepping in and taking the reins, technically the government will have the power to limit escalating costs by simply refusing to pay at ridiculous levels. This has some people running scared, because as the largest paying entity, the government can control health care costs. Whether it will act in this manner, similar to what people accuse WalMart of doing, who knows. I have yet to see a big government program run efficiently, but technically if managed well, it could. Reform does need to happen and I hope people can look at all sides and the history of the problem so that when they build a cure, they do it thoroughly enough that it is fair and equitable for all. [4]-who normally stays out of political discussions!
____________________ GOG Certified Trainer http://www.foursquarehorse.com Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. I Co 13: 6 -7 |
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17th, 2009 08:40 pm |
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6th Post |
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seabreeze G.O.G Community Member
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4Square wrote: With government stepping in and taking the reins, technically the government will have the power to limit escalating costs by simply refusing to pay at ridiculous levels. This has some people running scared, because as the largest paying entity, the government can control health care costs. Whether it will act in this manner, similar to what people accuse WalMart of doing, who knows. I have yet to see a big government program run efficiently, but technically if managed well, it could. The pending bills are vague about what powers the government will have, and open to interpretation. That's why the final version is expected to be at least 1400 pages. (The Constitution has only 6!) There is a reason why the democratic congress and this president do not want the public to have access to the final bill prior to the vote. I can't imagine changing this country so drastically without citizen imput. How can anyone possibly justify how this is being handled?
____________________ You know I only talk to you, Wilbur. -Mr. Ed |
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17th, 2009 08:51 pm |
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7th Post |
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stormzgaitzrgr8 G.O.G Community Member 
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The medical profession is the one service industry in our country who does not have to post their prices for customers.. there is no incentive for competition in the true sense of the word. They compete with each other based on advertising and whistles & bells, not on old fashioned cost. I had to have a surgery so I went to the hospital to ask how much (I only wanted a ball park figure)? They stared at me. "I don't know!"... and when I asked to speak to someone who did, I got more blank looks. You go in and get the service, then they will tell you how much it costs. Can a plumber, lawyer, electrician or beautician get away with that? They have to tell you prices for services up front, which allows you to compare options. There is one exception: Plastic Surgery. You see, insurance doesn't cover it, so docs must compete on the basis of prices (and outcomes, of course). For the past few years, prices have been coming down, not going up. In this part of the industry, there is no government or insurance involvement. What does that tell us?
____________________ Tracey (Stormzgaitzrgr8) |
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 02:27 am |
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8th Post |
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dawnrider G.O.G Community Member
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4Square wrote: Has anyone ever put much thought into why health care has become so expensive? As a member of the Healthcare industry for a long time, both as a direct provider and in the business aspect , I feel the need to address this post. The following is of course JMHO, based on my experience. I apologise to any who may be offended by interpreting my stance as playing 'devil's advocate'. I'm not. I just don't believe that my salary is the reason for high healthcare costs. There are many issues. As an aside, I've also lived in countries that have socialized medicine, and believe me, that's not the answer. It is true that inflation rates get passed on to the customer...as it does with gasoline, groceries, toilet paper and other neccesities of living. What drives UP the cost of health care is a conglomeration of things:
I believe that the salaries and services in the medical profession have become inflated because there has always been a resource capable of paying by pulling money out of the collective individual's pockets. Salaries are high because Medical school, malpractice insurance and personal liability risks are through the roof. And yes, because Drs want to make lots of money. It sucks, but it's human nature. The days when Drs could accept chickens for providing care are gone forever. Services are high because overhead is high- equipment, supplies, and hospitals cost money. Nurses, orderlies, housekeeping and food services staff don't want to work for free, either. My personal insurance for one person costs over 7k per year! It is part of the benefits package I have with my employer. In my worst year, maybe I used used 4k of services, which meant 3k of that money went to profit and to help pay for someone else's bills.Perhaps you should consider puttting your 7K in a personal healthcare account . If you have no serious illness, you'll have money left over at the end of the year. Otherwise, that's the way insurance is supposed to work-pooling of resources from which anyone can draw if needed. It's a gamble you don't need Las Vegas for- If your bill is $50,000 you've got it. If you never have a problem, you lose some money. It's also a rape, yes, because there's no limit on what insurance companies can charge you for your premium.
they might also not be able to stay in business for the above stated reasons, so there will be no Dr for you to see when you are sick. With government stepping in and taking the reins, technically the government will have the power to limit escalating costs by simply refusing to pay at ridiculous levels. This is ALREADY the case with current government programs- it is called "accepting assignment" and means that medicare/ medicaid can pay only what they decide a service is worth or refuse to pay AT ALL. No one can be billed for the balance of the bill, forcing the healthcare provider to "write off" those charges, even if the pt had extensive care. (This is the reason many MDs will not see pts with certain kinds of insurance. They want to be paid for their services.) Not suprisingly, this cost is passed along to those who do pay, driving costs up. I have yet to see a big government program run efficiently, but technically if managed well, it could. I agree it's theoretically possible, but a precedent has been set by the current dysfunctional programs, and we'd likely have our tax dollars paying for $700 bandaids and $1000 sponges.
In short, blaming Doctors and Medical services ALONE for for the high cost of medical care is simplistic and unfair. Many factors are at fault and they ALL need to be addressed. Government Healthcare would likely be run as all government programs are, and I don't see that as a fair and equitable solution. Peg, who, having stated all this, is reminded that she has horses to take her mind OFF these issues. Last edited on Sun Oct 18th, 2009 02:52 am by dawnrider ____________________ "And this our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stone, and good in every thing. I would not change it." ~As You Like It, II.1~ |
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 03:19 am |
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9th Post |
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4Square G.O.G Community Member
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Maybe I should have kept it simple. In summary I feel collective insurance is the main culprit of driving up costs. If this wasn't available, then the medical profession and all its subsidiaries would not be able to inflate costs beyond the average consumer's ability to pay for it. Veterinary professionals have a lot of specialized training too and utilize much of the same technology as human medicine, but you do not see the same proportionate amount of high wages associated with that field, because most folks paying for the services are individuals, not entities that are the collective pooled resources of many. My opinion was not an attack on anybody, field or profession. I am just encouraging people to think about what went wrong and why things got to this point. I am as wary as anybody on how politicians are going to try to fix it and my opinion is that likely we, the working populace, will ultimately lose as the wealthy find a way to continue to protect their interests while promising to take care of us little people who don't have a brain in our heads, especially Christians, those poor little backwards people that need the crutch of religion to make sense of the world... [4]
____________________ GOG Certified Trainer http://www.foursquarehorse.com Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. I Co 13: 6 -7 |
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 04:35 am |
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10th Post |
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gaitedfan G.O.G Community Member
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Random thoughts........ My explanation of benefits (EOB) statement always shows that only a small portion of what is billed is actually paid. Usually doctors, therapists, hospitals, pharmacies, etc. must write off the rest. It may be the only place you can't get the charge quoted before service BUT it's also the only place providers don't know what they will get paid until after the service is rendered (and it's often many months after the service). The only people I know who pay full price up-front (cash) are the Amish. Our idea of what health care should be has expanded dramatically over the last 30 years. I truly wonder if preventative care and screening really saves money. High blood sugar used to be a fasting level over 120 and high blood pressure used to be sustained numbers greater than 140/90. Now days people are labeled diabetic with a fasting blood sugar over 100 and hypertensive with a BP around 120/80. All of a sudden people who were considered healthy ten years ago are now encouraged to undergo constant expensive screening and take medications that truly make people feel sick. My doctor sometimes orders things I don't want and probably don't need because it has become a 'standard of practice' that must be followed to defend the art and practice of medicine in the ever looming potential malpractice litigation. A relative wanted a cardiac stress test several years ago 'to see how the old ticker is doing.' I suggested that if there was concern, it might be a good idea to just go ahead and start living the healthier life the doctor would no doubt prescribe. If there was no intention to change a lifestyle, there was no need to find out how bad things were. I don't think veterinary medicine is really comparable. Hard as it is, if the cost is too high some people will choose to euthanize. Many people (not most here on this forum) offer their pets little or no routine care. Very few people I know can afford the expensive treatments available for animals. Miracles are out of reach for the majority. Most animals we keep as pets have a considerably shorter lifespan than a human and we accept that. People expect or at least hope to live long healthy lives and then die in our sleep one day far away. ..............reform is needed but is it in the way we pay?
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 05:39 am |
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11th Post |
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4Square G.O.G Community Member
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I am talking commensurate pay with responsibility. A highly trained vet tech who can operate lots of different medical devices such as x-rays, anesthetic, anesthesia, draw blood samples, catheterize, etc does not earn the same as a person doing it in human medicine. I know a lot of people who don't get medical treatment because they cannot afford it. Yet I work in a profession where people who have free or next to free medical insurance from the government go in to ER's and doctors for every little ache and pain or just so they can get a doctor's note to excuse their behavior [they always get the note regardless of how healthy or unhealthy they may be due to the fear of a lawsuit if they later can prove they really were sick and suffered in some way because they weren't given a note!]. I'm not saying all people exploit it, but many do. If every working person is paying for their share and for those who are not contributing, the attitude could prevail to try to get one's money's worth out of it by using it more than they would if they had direct control over how their money is being spent. Not all would behave this way, but some would. And if I had an option, I would happily pocket the 6k a year my employer pays as part of my "benefits" and the 1k a year I pay toward the HMO. I'd invest most of it, but still carry a catastrophic injury plan at a lesser rate. But I'm not given a choice even from my own employer, just a choice of plans and a certain percentage amount that my employer will pay and then I the difference. That lack of choice on how much and to whom their money is going is what so many people are up in arms about. They are afraid they are going to be required, translate that "taxed" for a service at a rate and for a plan they have no choice and control over. [4]
____________________ GOG Certified Trainer http://www.foursquarehorse.com Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. I Co 13: 6 -7 |
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 12:32 pm |
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12th Post |
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tmdeck G.O.G Community Member 
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i work in the healthcare field and believe me when i say that the low paying jobs do not give realistic raises anymore. however the doctors and specialized fields do get more money. for instance, i have a friend who went in to talk to a doc about surgery. his fee was over $100 for less that 10 minutes. come on, that is unreasonable. when you go to the hospital for surgery or other things, it is not one flat rate. you have the er visit, the doctor visit, the anestetic person visit, the mri person visit, the specialized doctor visit, etc, etc. it is becoming ridiculous. however, some of the blame could be put on the people who go to the doc and er for simple things that didn't need to be an emergency. i do not have insurance because i cannot afford it. i was sick for two weeks and it felt like bronchitis but no way was i going to the doctor without insurance. what bothers me the most is the fact that someone, no names mentioned, is going to give free healthcare to illegal immigrants. why do they get everything and the american people have to suffer for it?
____________________ tammy |
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 07:38 pm |
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13th Post |
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dawnrider G.O.G Community Member
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Gaitedfan, your excellent random thoughts are right on target. I am talking commensurate pay with responsibility. A highly trained vet tech who can operate lots of different medical devices such as x-rays, anesthetic, anesthesia, draw bloodsamples, catheterize, etc does not earn the same as a person doing it in human medicine. Pay commensurate with responsibility? I suppose it depends on whether you feel human life to be more valuable than animal. Oddly enough, I was a vet tech for 7 years before becoming an RN. I feel compelled to point out that while the procedures might be similar, the vet techs' pts aren't HUMAN. And yes, I make much more money now than as a vet tech. But I frequently give drugs and do procedures at my current job that have the potential to KILL SOMEBODY. A PERSON. As much as I love animals, my current job carries much more responsiblility, has the potential to affect both the lives of my patients and my own life (in the event that we don't get the expected outcome and my pt dies) The death of a vet tech's pt will create a grieving owner who carries on. The death of a human patient usually creates widows and orphans and very long lasting emotional/financial/psychosocial effects. That's a 10 on the responsibility scale, as I see it. Peg Last edited on Sun Oct 18th, 2009 07:53 pm by dawnrider ____________________ "And this our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stone, and good in every thing. I would not change it." ~As You Like It, II.1~ |
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 09:17 pm |
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14th Post |
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Brenda Im Pasture Boss 
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I haven't had a chance to read all the posts here, but am genuinely surprised that this question even comes up. I'm one of those who currently have no insurance. Fortunately I was able to join the local Chamber of Commerce and become eligible for one of their plans - but believe me, it is expensive, and few families could ever afford to cover themselves. It's going to take a huge bite out of my budget. People who are very poor can receive medicade. Seniors can receive medicare. It's the middle class who carry the burden of paying for their care, as well as for their own. When they can no longer afford insurance - their tax dollars nevertheless still go toward the health care of others. If they get sick or injured? Tough. Lose the house, lose the car, and declare bankruptcy. (Contrary to popular belief, it's not credit card debt that sends the majority of people into bankruptcy. It's medical bills.) Unless you've walked the precipice of being uninsured, you likely don't appreciate how frightening it is to know that everything you've worked for in your life can be lost should you become ill or injured. What's as bad as people who cannot afford insurance at all is the number of legitimate claims that are routinely denied - for profit motives - and the thousands of people who suffer and die unnecessarily every year b/c of it. The insurance industry is guilty of bloodshed, and competition in the form of govt. subsidized plans will help put an end to that. The system should charge enough to pay for goods and services, period, and those costs should be covered via taxes. No publicly held companies should be profiting from the pain and suffering of others. With a govt. run system, most people would pay far less than what the average person pays out yearly for insurance now - and everyone would be covered, one way or another. I lived in Canada many years ago, and my gall-bladder nearly ruptured. I was hospitalized for surgery, and all my expenses were covered. The care was excellent, and I wasn't straddled with heavy debt as a result of this misfortune. Yes, Canada's system currently is rated only two numbers higher than our own - but they've committed to an overall reform that will be ongoing for several more years. They have a plan, and the resolve, to fix what isn't working. It seems we in the U.S. lack the ability to pull together and get a crucial job done. If we don't do it now, the spiraling costs of health care will bankrupt this nation within the next 10 years. Let's pray that our leaders have the courage, and wisdom, to bring our standard of care back to where it should be. To keep informed on this issue, check out this site: http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/?e=10&ref=text. PB 
____________________ Always forgive your enemies. It's good for you - and really messes with their heads! |
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19th, 2009 12:38 am |
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15th Post |
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teddyspot G.O.G Community Member
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I am afraid I am not smart enough to have the answers. It does seem to me health care is not a luxury but should be provided for every US citizen in this country. I pay more than my fair share of taxes. I don't understand......why don't people care about one another? I work for myself and carry my own insurance. it isn't good but its all I can afford. My Insurance agent told me if I get cancer I am SOL. My boyfriends insurance just went up to 1100.00 per month, he cannot afford that. we cannot get medicare or medicade, you must own your home which we do and have dependent children which we don't. we cannot go to the hospital and be treated unless we are dying. I know a lady that went to our local hospital in Greensboro with appendicitis and was sent home and told nothing could be done until it ruptured. her husband has lost his job and their coverage. we are all told we will not be turned away if we need help and yet I see it happening. I have worked since I was 16 I am 55 now and will work till I drop. I am not a lazy person that takes advantage yet I cannot get the meds and medical help I need..........I do without. this isn't about poor me, its about living in a country that should be ashamed for putting greed above the welfare of its people.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19th, 2009 12:41 am |
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16th Post |
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teddyspot G.O.G Community Member
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Thank you Brenda, I absolutely see it your way! susan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19th, 2009 05:49 am |
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17th Post |
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dawnrider G.O.G Community Member
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Brenda's post is informed and literate. As I said, I am not playing "The devil's advocate". Everyone should have good quality affordable healthcare available to them. I just don't see Government run healthcare as the solution. I would prefer to see laws that place limits on the cost of insurance premiums, guarantee that REASONABLE charges will be paid, limit what drug companies can charge for drugs and suppliers can charge for equipment and supplies. Without these limitations the government contractors that subsidize insurance will still be greedy and try to make a buck: we need not-for-profit healthcare. I'd like to see everyone have to pay a REASONABLE co-pay, perhaps based on income, to cut down on frivolous complaints. I have been uninsured for most of my life. I've just been very lucky that I didn't have any catastrophic illness during that time. With lesser illnesses I just toughed it out- that was my only option, because my minimum wage income was too much for public assistance (but still enough to pay for others' care) and not enough to purchase private insurance. The last five years I've had insurance, but I still wouldn't really call it afforable. It's entirely possible that my deep seated resistance to government programs is because I see so much abuse of the current government systems- I deeply resent the fact that my tax dollars have been paying for care to which I was not entitled when I was unemployed and penniless, while people as able as myself who were not working by choice could be treated free for any small ailment. And I'm frenzied that my elderly parents, hard workers and tax payers all their lives, now cannot afford to see the doctor in their declining years. Medicare no longer pays for many of their medications (I do) and they cannot afford their co-pays (I pay them). This leads me to wonder how, if the goverment cannot manage affordable care for one segment of society will they ever handle care for everybody? We need reform. We need a viable plan and the resolve to stick to it. We need strong advisors with integrity who are actually working in healthcare, not politicians, to create the program, and legislators who care enough to then push it though. Again, we need not-for-profit healthcare, not government healthcare. Although Brenda had a good experience with socialized medicine, that is not the always the case, especially in complicated cases and end-of-life issues. Only clear thinking and plenty of planning will lead us out of this quagmire. Peg (who volunteers her services at a local free clinic in a small personal effort to ease what suffering she can and make her corner of the world a better place.~ Lord, please make me a pebble that starts an avalanche.) Last edited on Mon Oct 19th, 2009 04:15 pm by dawnrider ____________________ "And this our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stone, and good in every thing. I would not change it." ~As You Like It, II.1~ |
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19th, 2009 08:58 pm |
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18th Post |
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Brenda Im Pasture Boss
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I agree, Peg - government has not been known as capable administrators of public services and programs. I am not averse to another solution, reached via legislation and cooperative effort on the part of private entities. I don't know of any such system in the world today. . .and am doubtful that we are capable of pioneering such a system, given the quagmire that the industry is in. I am also doubtful that companies now providing insurance coverage are going to ever be willing to give up the astronomical profits they have historically enjoyed. Any time legislation comes up that is a threat to that profit motive, the huge insurance lobbyists manipulate their political allies to ensure their continued 'fat cat' status. It is laudable to think that a new system can be pioneered by people outside of politics, but there's no way around the political system. If we try to fix the problems via legislation, price caps, etc. - who is going to vote on these measures? And to whom will these politicians be most indebted to - the everyday tax-paying (and often unvoting, uninformed) citizen. . .or the lobbyist who ensures, via political donations and string pulling, that he or she remains in office? There needs to be some sort of alliance among a bi-partisan political sector, intelligent non-political leaders, and the health care industry itself - this latter not to include insurance companies. This alliance needs to go into some secluded 'think tank' environment, study the issues at length, and come up with a workable solution. It needs to be agreed upon beforehand that whatever measures are decided upon, will without question be immediately acted upon. Anyone here seen SICKO? Yes, there are portions of this documentary that are likely set-up, and some exaggerations - but even given that, the message in this movie is a frightening, real life picture of how deplorable our current health 'care' system is, and a call to arms to insist that our politicians, one way or another, work together with other segments of the population to find long-term, affordable solutions. This work is long, long overdue - and I applaud those politicians today who have the courage to keep this issue front and center until it has been adequately addressed. PB
____________________ Always forgive your enemies. It's good for you - and really messes with their heads! |
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20th, 2009 11:11 pm |
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19th Post |
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SunnysMum G.O.G Community Member 
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Actually Medicade/Medical isn't really for the very poor. It's for those who are either perminately disabled, under 21 or have a child under 21 or are an Illegal Immagrent. If someone is over 21 and doesn't have any kids and was actually BORN in this country then they're screwed unless they're determind to be "disabled" which is and has been technically a "matter of opinion" by the government and determind by Government Associated Doctors. More people in the lower income brackets get "rewarded" for screwing up their lives, than those that actually do things in a smart and logical mannor. If medical fraud was cut, and we stopped having to pay for people that aren't even here legally regardless of what country they come frome. Our Insurance Premiums etc would not be so expensive. Also if they cut or squeezed profit margins it would cut down the cost of medical insurance. Remember when gass almost cost $5 a gallon? Where was the goverment then to step in and put a squeeze on the Gass Manufacturing companies? There is no way in the world those Billionaires deserve a $1.50 per gallon PROFIT while the American Economy is brought to it's knees because of their greed.
____________________ Chi ha tegoli di vetro, non tiri sassi al vicino |
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 11:27 pm |
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20th Post |
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McKTX7 G.O.G Community Member
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As far as I am concerned as long as every congressman, senator, & President and family are in the same govt run progam as I am, I'll be OK with it. If it is not good enough for them to forego what they have now, the govt can take what they propose for the "common person" and shove it!
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