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Gaits of Gold Gaited Horse Community Messageboard > Gait Discussions > Any Smooth Saddle Gaits > SPOKE TOO SOON.....HELP! |
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Gaits of Gold Gaited Horse Community Messageboard > Gait Discussions > Any Smooth Saddle Gaits > SPOKE TOO SOON.....HELP! |
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| SPOKE TOO SOON.....HELP! | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 4th, 2011 09:19 pm |
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1st Post |
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sisbarbo G.O.G Community Member 
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I guess I spoke too soon!!!! I went out to work with Onyx today and I started him out by free lunging him for a bit, then we went on to the ground work. He was bending left and right. Standing and stopping, and backing. I even clipped him today. Good as gold on the ground. But that is no secret...this horse thinks he's a dog and will do anything on the ground willingly. So... I thought hmmm...maybe I'll just get on him bareback it'll be good for my trust level, and I'll just walk him around and work on using one rein at a time, get him to do some bending. Nothing major. He stood as still as night as I got on and I even needed a stool plus an extra boost to get up there....he still stood still. Pretty good so far..... huh???? Well I get up there and we get walking around and I see his whole demeanor change. Ears are forward he's dancing around (nothing scary and no saddle to pinch him) he starts trying to gait....I get him reined in....do some circles, telling him walk, walk. Still acting up. Soooo... I decide I'm going to get in the saddle and really work him. I get in the saddle...which again he stood still as night for me to get on. We gaited around a few times, but I could see that he was still resisting me. All of a sudden he "got the bit" and he took off!!!! I tried seesawing the reins...no luck. I tried one rein stop....the more I tried to pull his head around...the more he pulled back...couldn't get his head around. So now I'm flying around the arena....no whoa.....the guys were cleaning stalls so I started saying "hellooooo" could use some help here.....hellooooo..." meanwhile I try to run him into a corner and he hesitated, but didn't stop. I almost fell off! I got resituated in the saddle and one of the guys came out at that moment and we got him stopped. I got off the horse.... I ran him around the arena (in free lunge format) until he couldn't run anymore. I let him stand for a moment to catch 1/2 of his breath and off we went again. This went on for approx. 35-45 min. I got back on him, and made him walk. Then I made him gait SLOWLY....he was seriously still defying me in the saddle. He was sooo mad that I got back on him, he was just too tired to do too much about it. I continued to make him go around until he did it right. After a few times around I got off of him and unsaddled him. We did more ground work. Walk....stop.....back. He refused to back.... I got after him and backed him hard. Again....walk...stop....back....we did this until he submitted. WHAT A CHALLENGE!!!!!! ANY SUGGESTIONS??????? hb1
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| Posted: Tue Jan 4th, 2011 11:42 pm |
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2nd Post |
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GypsySusan G.O.G Community Member 
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Sorry you had to deal with the runaway. You did exactly what you should have. Congrats on hanging on and for using the right tools to discipline him. One question - have you been working him every day in the arena? Has he gotten some rest? Maybe too much rest? - IDK what set him off but he definitely was testing your leadership. One thing to maybe try (if you don't already), when lunging don't just send him around and around and around - maybe 2-3 circles then change directions, inside turns, outside turns, through the gate. Have you put the caveson on him yet? Do you know the Parelli games - try those skills also.
____________________ Susan http://www.gypsytrotters.com Phil 4:11-13, 19 Missouri Fox Trotters: To Ride One... Is to Own One. |
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| Posted: Wed Jan 5th, 2011 01:02 am |
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3rd Post |
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NOELLEE G.O.G Community Member 
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Barbi, I asked my boyfriend about suggestions for your horse since his QH was doing the same resist and test under saddle. Here is what we came up with: I don't recall what bit you using. But we took his QH back to a D-ring snaffle, thick copper mouthpiece broken in the center with the training bars and cavesson. But before you get back in the saddle, try a different type of groundwork. Forget lunging and any force such as in backing up action for now. Put your horse in a rope halter with the strategic knots, and a 10' marine rope with the rattler on the end (piece of leather strips). First step to groundwork: Teach Onyx to back up without force. Simply shake the rope in front of him and jiggle the leather ends closer if he resists. Step forward and move him back without force, using only the shake of the rope. I am posting a pic here to help paint it. Practice this until Onyx easily steps back without any force from your body, just the rope signal. This picture shows my boyfriend teaching this to his QH after a scary bolt this horse did with his daughter riding, very similar to what you have described. Second: Reward standing shoulder to shoulder. Rub his neck. No more treats. Onyx now needs to understand respect from a different perspective. The shoulder to shoulder, touching with rubbing motion, is a reward horses already know from each other, and especially from those herd companions that are considered herd companions they want to please. The dominant horse will always be the one to reach forward shoulder to shoulder, reward another horse, using their mouth to rub the neck area of this other horse. I will post a pic to follow since I seem to only be able to get one pic on each reply. Third: Expect Onyx to follow you. Be the leader without question. Lead Onyx without force everywhere until he freely moves with you, never rushes you, turns with your shoulder... moves as one with you, but always the follower. Another pic to follow. Fourth: Put Onyx to a test to teach trust with you. It can be a tarp on the ground held down with rocks. It can be a wooden bridge set on the ground. Pic to follow. Lead Onyx to these tests over and over again until there is no question from your horse and he freely follows in a testy situation. These are just four workouts of others on the ground that translate to a language the horse understands. The QH is the pictures is a "general", and is also an emotional horse that cannot be taught to understand through force. But can easily learn leadership from another through "games" on the ground that put you in the leadership role over the lesser "general". Once you get Onyx working easily through these types of workouts, then bit and tack him up, but clip on a set of long driving reins. Shorten the stirrups so you can thread the long reins through and the reins fall near the shoulder. Stand behind Onyx and drive him. Forward, stop, back up, right, left, keep practicing. You want Onyx to now understand these motions with the feel of saddle and bit, and your presence. When you are ready to get in the saddle again, be prepared to react faster than Onyx should he have the urge to resist and speed up. At the very moment you feel Onyx resist, do not allow him to get to the speed up stage, use the one hand stop right away. No moment for him to take charge. The QH in the pics made tremendous improvement. Every now and then on a trail ride when we reach an open field, the QH will have a resist-speed up urge. My boyfriend immediately takes him into the one hand stop, sometimes they have to spin a few circles with my boyfriend using a strong arm, but the horse always gives first. Also, as he is turning the horse, he is applying pressure on the opposite side with his heel, to move the horse off pressure and into the turn/circles. It is interesting to watch now, I used to hold my breath, lol, now I know the pattern... there is this moment of intense chemistry between them, horse reluctantly, but strongly protests (testing), yet gives to the pressure and circles, boyfriend wins. Ride goes on as normal. When it happens, it only happens once on a ride. Seems the not so true "general" needed the challenge, but not necessary the win. Boyfriend loves horse. Attachment: backing up without force.jpg (Downloaded 178 times)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 5th, 2011 01:03 am |
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4th Post |
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NOELLEE G.O.G Community Member
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Reward pic Attachment: reward shoulder to shoulder.jpg (Downloaded 177 times)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 5th, 2011 01:04 am |
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5th Post |
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NOELLEE G.O.G Community Member
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Leader pic Attachment: expect followers, be a leader.jpg (Downloaded 177 times)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 5th, 2011 01:04 am |
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6th Post |
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NOELLEE G.O.G Community Member
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Test and trust pic Attachment: test to teach trust.jpg (Downloaded 179 times)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 5th, 2011 02:03 am |
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7th Post |
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sisbarbo G.O.G Community Member
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Susan.... I know EXACTLY what set him off today....he was fed late. And when I got there I interupted the meal that he had waited all night and all day for. He had been grazing at the feeder for about 45 minutes but there was still quite a bit of hay there. It was 12:30 in the afternoon. ALL of the feeders were full....so they all had gotten fed late. He has had a few days rest in between riding due to the weather, but this was more attitude than energy. At least I didn't panic... I knew he couldn't "take" me any where. But even still it was NOT a good feeling! I have the cavesson on order, I think it will be a huge help. He was definately gaping his mouth with his head up and out, while bolting. I will have to get a different bit to use it with. I have a gag bit that I'm considering....the bars are not too thin, and it shouldn't be to harsh unless intended. I will just have to be very careful to ride with light hands. The bit is not intended as a weapon only a tool. Then maybe I can switch him to a cavesson with a Dee snaffle. Noellee, Thank you. Pictures are awesome learning tools, and your boyfriends QH is absolutely gorgeous! I will let you know that Onyx does do all of these things on the ground....did so even today. We did the lead and follow and he does "back" with just a "wiggle" of the lead. He will even "back" without a lead. You are right that he needs to learn respect on a new level, and that he needs to do these things out of respect not for treats. I have not tried the trust level of the ground work. That will be a good one. And I also had someone suggest moving his hind quarters in a circle with my hand on his side. Another one I will try. I have never "driven" a horse. I've seen it done, but not done it myself...maybe I can get one of my friends to help me with that. Usually I can beat him to the punch, and pull him into a tight circle...but today he was expecting MY reaction! He knew exactly what I would do and was prepared to work against it. I've said it before and I'll say it again....this horse is highly intelligent, and defiant....he does not want to be ridden....you have to be 3 steps ahead of him because he is always 2 ahead of you!!! All that bit fiddling isn't discomfort...it's brain in motion! Last edited on Wed Jan 5th, 2011 02:09 am by sisbarbo |
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| Posted: Wed Jan 5th, 2011 04:06 am |
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8th Post |
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Lakota G.O.G Community Member 
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Well it seems that you are reading your horse very well. That's half the battle. Sounds like he wants to be in charge. You might want to send a PM to Sunny'smum. She may be able to give you some insights that could open the door to a greater understanding of his mindset. She helped me with a crazy Paso I was dealing with.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 5th, 2011 04:09 am |
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9th Post |
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NOELLEE G.O.G Community Member
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Barbi, something you said in your opening post at the end was Onxy got mad. It makes me consider if he is mad at the bits. He seems to only exhibit this defiant behavior when in a bit. On the ground, he seems fairly happy. I don't think the gag bit is a good route right now, will likely only flare up more his distrust with bits, and add to the list. Maybe it would be helpful to list the bits you have tried, and the reactions Onxy had to each bit. Then beside each bit, list what communication that bit sends to the horse from the rider's hands, such as pressure on tongue only, pressure on bars only, pressure at various spots. You want to be able to make the bit as "pain-free" as possible with how your hands work and how the pressure is applied to the horse. Something else to consider... teaching Onxy to move via "reign" cues as in reigning training. The horse moves off leg, heel and seat cues, stops on your seat cue. Very little bit communication is needed. Cow horses trained to work cattle get this basic training before advancing to cutting, roping and so forth as the rider needs his hands free most of the time. I have been showing Rain "reign" cues on the ground and he is picking these up fast in the saddle now. He is a TWH, not a QH, but seems to be a natural at understanding this. I have heard of TWHs trained to move cattle, so it is doable for a walker! I have yet to take Rain to the cow fields, having too much fun gaiting for now  Last edited on Wed Jan 5th, 2011 04:12 am by NOELLEE |
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| Posted: Wed Jan 5th, 2011 05:06 pm |
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10th Post |
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SunnysMum G.O.G Community Member 
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Also you might want to check out the book "Horse, Follow Closely" by Gawani Ponyboy , and get the version that comes with an DVD. Plus he has an DVD for "Gaining Your Horses's Trust" and "Defining Your Space". They're very usefull and sorry I haven't got back to you yet, I've had a very stressfull week so far dealing with doctors and other things. I haven't even been able to think straight.
____________________ Chi ha tegoli di vetro, non tiri sassi al vicino |
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| Posted: Wed Jan 5th, 2011 05:26 pm |
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11th Post |
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Brenda Im Pasture Boss 
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Some suggestions: Practice those one-rein stops before you need to use one - and that means lots and lots of practice. Sixty times to each side, max. Just pulling a horse's head around is not a one-rein stop, and if the bit is a problem, may just make him more upset. Make sure you wear a hard hat every time you ride this horse. No exceptions. You tired him out. . .then worked him under saddle again until he behaved (however reluctantly). Then you got off and - worked him some more? Where was the reward for his good behavior? Where was the release of pressure? Once the horse behaves as you ask, for whatever reason, it's time to release pressure and give him an "attaboy." Otherwise he won't know that behaving leads to a reward, so why bother trying?. Good luck! PB 
____________________ Always forgive your enemies. It's good for you - and really messes with their heads! |
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| Posted: Wed Jan 5th, 2011 08:34 pm |
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12th Post |
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TheBlaze G.O.G Community Member 
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If you are consistently having problems riding him, why not try just sticking to groundwork for awhile? If you can end your work sessions on a good note (groundwork only) then he'll have some time to build up trust with you. I'd recommend groundwork only for a month. And learn some new things and teach them to him. My rule is teach one day, the second day see if he learned the new thing. If not, continue teaching. Once he has learned something new, give him a day off. Then, start with a new thing the next time you work together. This way he is always learning something new and being rewarded. Also, remember to practice what he has learned. Also, look into his personality. Does he like to repeat the same thing over and over? Or does he get bored? Do what he wants to do. Make the right answer easy. And move onto something else. If he doesn't get something right away, and gets frustrated try something he does know. After about a week or two of groundwork, start putting a bridle on him for groundwork. Take off the reins and try doing groundwork with him wearing a bit for a week or so. Then, you can reattach the reins and practice bending him from the ground using the reins. I like to be able to translate all of my groundwork into work under saddle as well. I too strongly recommend Brenda's bits. They really are amazing! If you can't get your hands on one try a snaffle with D rings or a solid mouthpiece with short shanks. Remember, those long shanks add lots of leverage. And steer clear of snaffle (broken) mouth pieces with shanks. Those can be very hurtful! And you certainly don't want a bit causing any pain! Every time I encounter a problem I go back to basics, even with my older horses. When you hit a road bump it's usually from some training that's been skipped, missed, or forgotten. And remember to reward him for trying to give you an answer. Even if it's the wrong answer in the beginning. By rewarding him and making the experience enjoyable, he should want to be around you more and more.
____________________ ~Tina Wishes are horses, and I fly! |
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| Posted: Thu Jan 6th, 2011 01:56 pm |
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13th Post |
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TessieBAgain G.O.G Community Member 
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Times like these make you wonder why the heck you wanna ride. Challenging your authority is just part of some horse's life. They want to make sure they can trust your leadership skills in all situations. A truly dominant horse wants to be able to do the job his way. Because his way is the right way. This has been proven by humans who stop insisting when a certain behavior makes the human back off. With a truly dominant horse I like to give them a bit of laxity to do the job I'm requesting. If I ask a dominant horse to back up and he wants to do so with head high. Fine, he backed up. I'll work on head position later. Then I quickly change the subject and ask for another behavior. The fastest way to really tick off a dominant horse is to keep asking for one behavior over and over when he's doing what your are telling him. Now on the other hand, if you are dealing with a young, fearful horse, break up your lesson into many, many tiny steps and reward for every try. Keep the lesson short and sweet. Be encouraging, respectful, yet firm. If you are dealing with a disrespectful horse and choose to do ground work, forget about running some sense into him. Put a little flavor to your ground work. Add some interesting objects to your repertoire. Get active by doing the usual then add something a little alarming to the mixture. Get that horse going over a tarp or over poles, or through balloons bobbing around on the ground. You want that horse responding to your body language. Once that hoss gets good going over stuff, make him back over it. This is a true challenge of your teaching skill. Horses just don't like to back over things caressing their legs. But if you have created a kinship with your horse, he will try. Reward him by allowing him to come forward then request he back again. Keep doing this until this horse trusts you enough not to resist. Advance according to the horse's ability. May take some time, and remember, you don't want to scare your horse into submission, you want to make him respect your requests. Take the time it takes with each particular horse. And, as always, take a good look at your tack. Make sure this horse is comfortable under the saddle and in the bridle Evaluate his feeding program. Are unnecessary supplements being added to the diet? Too much stall time? So many things to consider but remember a horse is a living animal with his own personality. Expects days you can't do a thing with him. The most important thing is to not get hurt and to not allow your horse to get hurt. Horse folks have these kinds of days. Yet, we always grab the saddle and try again. That's why we are horse people!
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| Posted: Thu Jan 6th, 2011 04:06 pm |
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14th Post |
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sisbarbo G.O.G Community Member
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Actually he did receive a reward for his "good" behavior. As soon as he went around willingly while I was working in the saddle.... I got off. As soon as he "backed" willingly on the ground, I stopped and threw him a flake of hay, and we were done for the day. After giving this situation long and hard thought....I've decided to sell the horse. I CANNOT as a parent have a horse that can and WILL bolt for the fun of it. And that's exactly what this was....calculated and intentional. There was no pain....there was nothing frightening....he found my weakness, saw his opportunity and took it...plain and simple. If he were a kicker or a biter... I would have considered him "mean" and he would've been long gone a long time ago, but because he is kind on the ground he's been worth the effort. But his behavior in the saddle is just as "mean" and dangerous as kicking and biting on the ground. My daughter loves horses, and her dad helps to pay 1/2 of our horse board and care so that she can have a horse to enjoy. It is supposed to be fun....believe me....this isn't fun! It would be unfair to all involved to keep a horse that she absolutely CANNOT ride. I would NEVER trust this horse with my daughter on him...ever! There are too many good ones out there to take unnecessary chances!!!!! Hopefully he will wind up in the hands of a good trainer and they can turn him into the wonderful horse that I had hoped for him to be. If anyone is interested and feels up to the challenge feel free to contact me.... I'm only asking to get purchasing price for him.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 6th, 2011 08:21 pm |
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15th Post |
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Lakota G.O.G Community Member
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Tessie, you took the time to put all the right stuff into words. Well said! Sisbarbo, don't feel too bad. Sometimes this is the best thing to do. Admiting 'defeat' is nothing to be ashamed of, you made the safe call and you can't do anything better than that. We've had a 14.2hand Walker for 6 years that was a crazy 6yr. old when we got him. All he knew to do was go go go. It has taken so much time to get him good manners and as one person said on a trail ride, "he definately has an agenda" lol, but he is pretty great now. Looking back, it would have been smarter to get a better younger horse that was still 'moldable' and train him my way. Good luck to you! 
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| Posted: Thu Jan 6th, 2011 09:37 pm |
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16th Post |
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sisbarbo G.O.G Community Member
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Tessie, you really did put that together well, and thank you. Lakota, I'm trying not to feel the agony of defeat, but honestly I feel like I'm going through a divorce. I had promised myself that I wouldn't give up on him ... no matter what, because that is obviously what everyone else in his past has done. Otherwise he wouldn't have wound up where he did.... with brokers and traders. But all I could think was if that had been my daughter up there.... she would've panicked and she could've fallen off and gotten hurt. I would've never been able to forgive myself. And even if she didn't get hurt....it may have caused her to fear horses....and she loves them so much! Just not worth it t1 I spent most of my day calling around to local trainers.... I told them the situation and that I believed in the right hands he could be a great horse. Believe it or not... I got a call back! We'll see what happens! Thanks for all of your support 1l Barbi Last edited on Thu Jan 6th, 2011 09:38 pm by sisbarbo |
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| Posted: Thu Jan 6th, 2011 10:17 pm |
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17th Post |
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TheBlaze G.O.G Community Member
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Barbi, I can only imagine how frustrated you must be through all of this. Hopefully, he will find the right home, which is so important for a horse. Also, remember that everyone who rides and loves horses will fall off one day. I've been riding for over 20 years and have fallen off at least 7 times. You just get back on. And, kids bounce!
____________________ ~Tina Wishes are horses, and I fly! |
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| Posted: Thu Jan 6th, 2011 11:09 pm |
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18th Post |
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sisbarbo G.O.G Community Member
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I agree Tina.... I've fallen off my fair share too. Especially when I was younger and worked as an exerciser at a barn and rode 3 - 5 per day. I remember one horse that would gallop and then stop.... I would fly over the ears and into the ditch or whatever else was waiting on the other side...she'd nudge me like "ya alright?" wanna do it again? Those were the days.....-- and you're right kids do bounce. But he was flying around that arena, and I'm not so sure she would've bounced back from that kind of experience. I have to tell ya.... I know that "I" have to get back up there and now that I'm alot older and wiser...it's going to be alot harder to bounce back myself. I will ..... but I'm not gonna want too.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 7th, 2011 04:23 am |
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19th Post |
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softride G.O.G Community Member 
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The hardest decision is whether to keep a horse or let go. I to had a TN walker that would be good as gold until he wasn't!!!! He would ride for days and then go bonkers. The more I rode him the stronger he got and the more I would have to ride him. Riding was not pleasant or fun. Running away is so dangerous. Jackson would run full speed, bit between his teeth and nothing would stop him. I cried for weeks because I felt like I had given up. I finally figured out that I needed a safer horse and sold him. He was happier and I was safer. Got a wonderful easy going confidence builder, just what I needed after all the wild rides. I think that you have made a wise decision. Getting hurt isn't necessary and your daughter will love the next horse just as much.
____________________ Horses are not a job-They are a way of life! |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 7th, 2011 04:00 pm |
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20th Post |
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sisbarbo G.O.G Community Member
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Thank you Softride.... I couldn't have said it better! I have a friend who has a 5 yr old blue roan MFT for sale, I know all there is to know about this horse and his history. They are wonderful people so I know that he comes from a good home with sensible horse people. I have also ridden with this horse on various trail rides and camping expeditions....so I am familiar with his behavior. I am taking my daughter out to see him on Sunday. She's met him before but only a couple of times and certainly not as a prospect of being her horse. We'll see how they "click"....but you're right...she will love the next horse just as much!!! Last edited on Fri Jan 7th, 2011 04:01 pm by sisbarbo |
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| Gaits of Gold Gaited Horse Community Messageboard > Gait Discussions > Any Smooth Saddle Gaits > SPOKE TOO SOON.....HELP! | Top |
